EPISODE OVERVIEW:

Financial expert Audrey Morrison reveals critical strategies for protecting your retirement when divorcing after 50. From splitting complex assets to navigating Social Security benefits, this episode unpacks how to avoid costly mistakes during this major life transition. Betty Wang and Morrison examine real-world cases where professional guidance saved divorcees from financial devastation, making this essential listening for anyone considering or experiencing a late-life separation.

TIME STAMPS:

[4:18] Approaches to Divorce 

• Importance of mediation
• Finding legal representation 

[14:15] Myths About Divorce

• Dividing assets
• Maintaining obligations

[19:58] Budgeting Post-Divorce

• Budgeting for living alone 
• Understanding new finances

[21:35] Financial Education 

• Financial education for women
• Retirement planning

[33:41] Finding a Financial Advisor 

• Qualities of a financial advisor
• Divorce support

KEY TAKEAWAYS: 

• Financial aspects of divorce: Strategic financial planning is crucial and requires early professional guidance
• Significance of legal representation: Quality legal counsel specializing in gray divorce can protect assets like home equity, investments and Social Security benefits during property division
• Common myths about maintenance: Maintenance isn’t guaranteed after long-term marriages
• Emotional aspects of divorce: building a support network and setting boundaries helps emotional healing
• Approaches to divorce: There are different avenues to take such as mediation and collaborative divorce, that often preserve more wealth than litigation

GUEST INFO: 

Audrey Morrison, Financial Expert

• Website
• Website
• LinkedIn

RESOURCES:

• Join Betty in a free consultation call for your financial goals
• Subscribe to the Betty’s Smart Friends YouTube Channel
• Follow us on Instagram
• Visit my website for more info
• Follow us on LinkedIn

Betty Wang is an investment adviser representative of BW Financial LLC, a registered investment adviser registered in the State of Colorado. Registration does not imply a certain level of skill or training. The views and opinions expressed are as of the date of publication and are subject to change. The content is for informational or educational purposes only, and is not intended as individualized investment advice. This information should not be relied upon as the sole factor in an investment-making decision. You are encouraged to consult with a financial professional to address your specific needs and circumstances.

TRANSCRIPTION:

Betty Wang 00:00:06 Hello everyone, and welcome to today’s episode of Betty Smart Friends. I’m Betty Wang, your host. Today we’ll be talking about the financial aspects of divorce, which are especially complicated after long marriages with a lot of jointly accumulated assets. There’s a growing trend called gray divorce that involves couples over the age of 50 ending their marriages due to various factors like empty nest syndrome, financial issues, infidelity, and simply growing apart. Over 60% of grey divorces are initiated by women. If you or a loved one are in this situation, there are professionals and resources available to help with the financial side of divorce. We’re so lucky to have a financial divorce expert, Audrey Morrison, here with us today to share her knowledge and experience on this topic. Audrey is a certified financial planner and a certified divorce financial analyst. Through her two firms, Care and Financial Advisors and Divorce Financial Strategies. Audrey has dedicated herself to providing resources and financial planning services to. Divorcing women. Her goal is to help clients take a clear, judgment free look at their finances.

Betty Wang 00:01:15 Set realistic goals and develop an action plan to achieve the best possible outcomes. Divorce is undoubtedly tough, but financial planning doesn’t have to be. Audrey is here to ensure that no one has to go through this journey alone. Please welcome Audrey to the podcast. Hi, Audrey. Thanks for joining us.

Audrey Morrison 00:01:34 Hi. Thanks, Betty. Thanks for having me. I’m excited.

Betty Wang 00:01:38 Thank you. Well, let’s start today by hearing a little bit more about you and how you got involved in this area of financial planning and how you got started.

Audrey Morrison 00:01:46 Well, I got involved in the area of divorce, specifically divorce financial planning, because I went through a divorce right around 0809 during turbulent financial times.

Betty Wang 00:01:59 Oh, yeah, that’s a hard time.

Audrey Morrison 00:02:02 So anyway, I got through that, but it was, you know, quite an experience. And I learned a lot through that. And, you know, then you think in life when you go through something that’s difficult, you know, how can I turn this into a positive? So fast forward, I got divorced in oh eight, oh nine, like started in oh eight and it finalized in oh nine in Chicago.

Audrey Morrison 00:02:22 And then I was divorced in Chicago with three children, one of whom had special needs. And I really wanted to move away from Chicago. I convinced my ex-husband to move to Colorado, and we all moved sort of, you know, all moved to the same area of Denver, which was really nice. And I made friends, and many of them happened to be divorced people. And so, anyway, when I turned 50, I was sort of reevaluating my career, which had been in finance, but mostly in the corporate side of finance, as well as some change management roles. And as I was reevaluating, I was working with a friend and we were going to start a nonprofit that helped women going through divorce and help them think through the financial and the legal and the emotional aspects just as a support. And one thing led to another. Since I was reevaluating my career, I thought, well, I’m a finance person. I could, you know, maybe help with the financial aspects. And so then I started to talk to other professionals and learn a little bit about it, and decided to get my CFP certified financial planner.

Audrey Morrison 00:03:27 And then after that, the divorce specialty area. So so it’s been fantastic. I feel like I’ve learned a lot and therefore it makes me feel good to help other, you know, women that are going through those difficult times, you know, and to set themselves up for success and not just feel like they have to go along with whatever their husband is saying, you know, stand up for themselves, fight for what they’re entitled to.

Betty Wang 00:03:52 Yeah. What what should people, what should women know about the different approaches to divorce? I mean, again, it is becoming more and more popular as our kids, you know, with older kids, right? They need you a little less and you’re able to focus on your relationship and a little more. And I think that’s part of the reason why these divorces after longer marriages are happening. Right? That’s what the trend has been. What should women know? What are the different ways you can go about it? Yeah.

Audrey Morrison 00:04:18 So there’s a few different ways you can go about it.

Audrey Morrison 00:04:21 And I would say if it’s amicable. I mean, you certainly can. There are people that like have a do it yourself divorce where they call it a kitchen table, divorce where you sort of go through the steps. You know, there’s resources online about what you have to do for the process in your state. It varies from state to state a little bit. But, you know, mostly it’s the same guidelines where there’s financial disclosures, etc.. And then you you have to, you know, split your assets, split your debt. Think about if there’s maintenance involved and those kinds of things. And if it’s later in life there’s less children issues, right. Because when it’s earlier and your children are younger, that’s like a whole component of of the divorce and agreeing to the different areas. So if you’re fairly amicable, you could try that. That’s generally easier when you know you’re just like 22 and been married for a year versus later in life. Mediation is a pretty good way to go. But I also think that having an attorney with the game plan in mind of not necessarily, you know, fighting in court, but just so that if each of you has an attorney, they can talk to each other and either go to mediation or sometimes even settle it before mediation because it’s pretty straightforward.

Audrey Morrison 00:05:30 You know, it doesn’t have to be like contentious just because you hire an attorney. And then the other way, if there’s any kind of imbalance of power, that’s a very big deal. Either way, if there’s an imbalance of power or if one person has a little bit more like bullish, you know, kind of attitude, then I think it’s really important to get representation so that somebody is fighting for you and can represent you. Yeah, that’s.

Betty Wang 00:05:51 Really, really good advice. The power imbalance like people don’t think about that.

Audrey Morrison 00:05:56 Right. And even if the power imbalance. Yeah. So somebody knows a lot about finances, another person is not as astute, you know, to have somebody there in their corner to look at things and make sure that they’re not being, you know, taken advantage of.

Betty Wang 00:06:08 What do you say to women who say they can’t afford attorney? They want to just do it themselves because it’s yeah, they think it’ll be cheaper, right?

Audrey Morrison 00:06:17 So a couple of things. So, you know, I’m all for saving money.

Audrey Morrison 00:06:20 So I don’t it’s not like I want people to spend a lot of money on an attorney. And there’s certainly steps people can take to reduce the costs there. You know, where they do the financial disclosures themselves and etc.. You know, you can hire attorneys like a la carte where they’re just doing certain things for you instead of taking on your whole case. So I’m all for all the ways that you can save money. But at the same time, especially if there’s that imbalance. ET cetera. I say you can’t afford not to because people give away too much, you know, they don’t understand that they’re entitled to certain things. And so then, you know, if you have two people and neither of them have been divorced before, they really don’t know how the law works. They don’t know how maintenance works. And. And things like that. They don’t know how separate property works. And so it’s, you know, nobody’s informed. And it’s very important for you to become informed through. And that’s what an attorney or a mediator can help you with or a financial person.

Betty Wang 00:07:10 And so from a financial perspective, what are you at a high level. What are what should they be looking at. What what are things that maybe they they should be thinking about doing.

Audrey Morrison 00:07:20 So there’s, you know, a few key areas that are in every divorce. So the one is splitting assets in debt. Right. So you’re going to and that’s a big part. You can’t just you know the assets. And so I also think it’s important to know what kind of accounts you have. And so if many people have a lot of their money in tax deferred retirement accounts. Right. So like generally for one case are often tax deferred. And so it’s better to when I set that up I look at things that are tax deferred tax free in like taxable accounts and try to keep it even in each of those categories, like in terms of splitting assets, you know, within reason. It doesn’t have to be exactly even. But, you know, you don’t want it to be off by hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Audrey Morrison 00:08:05 And so that’s one big thing. Another big thing is the debt. You know, so often there’s people that are getting divorced now and they have a super good mortgage rate because they were able to refinance when rates were fantastic. So they have like 3% or even less. And they think that they can, that whoever’s keeping the house can keep that mortgage rate. And that’s just not how it works. Unfortunately, whoever is going to keep the house, if somebody is going to keep the house, they’re going to have to refinance and get, you know, get a new mortgage at the current rates. Often they’re then taking extra money out because they have to pay off the other person. But but, you know, the rates are higher. And so it’s a total bummer. But unfortunately that’s the way it has to work because you don’t want to keep that other person on the mortgage. They don’t want to be on the on the mortgage, because then if there’s some kind of default or something, then that’s in their name too, on their credit and more importantly, or maybe not more importantly, but more practically, they can’t get another mortgage.

Audrey Morrison 00:09:04 Usually if they’re on one mortgage because you have to be, you know, pretty wealthy to be able to afford the two mortgages, you know, that’s against their credit. Available credit.

Betty Wang 00:09:14 Is this what your CD for is certified divorce financial Analyst so is that where somebody, a woman would retain your services to help them think through these things? I mean, if somebody doesn’t have their own financial advisor at the time, and even if they do, yeah, it’s sometimes helpful to have someone who’s trained in this because there are certain, you know.

Audrey Morrison 00:09:38 Specialty areas. Yes.

Betty Wang 00:09:39 Little nitpicky things that somebody like you who works with divorce all the time, right, could point out.

Audrey Morrison 00:09:47 So yes, as a KFA, I work a lot of different ways depending on the case. So sometimes people are just thinking about divorce and they want me to, you know, help them go through, like how things could look. Right. So here’s what we have. How do you think that will look? Will I? They kind of want to ensure that they’re not going to be a bag lady, because there’s this whole bag lady syndrome.

Audrey Morrison 00:10:07 People are afraid, right?

Betty Wang 00:10:09 Oh my gosh. Yeah. I call it cat lady. Yeah. Eating cat food. Yeah. Under a bridge. Right.

Audrey Morrison 00:10:16 I want to make sure before that, you propose to their husband that they want the divorce. They want to see that they would be, you know, viable option, that they they will be okay. Women tend to do more research. You know, when they’re thinking about it, you know, kind of preparing. And men tend to be more like they’re just finding out kind of as they’re going through it. So I often work in that capacity. And then sometimes I’ll work with somebody that they’re going through the divorce, and they want somebody in their corner to work with their attorney. Sometimes attorneys call me in to help on a case if it’s a little bit more, you know, financially heavy or, you know, centric or this difficult assets and things. And then I often work with a mediator that calls me in when there’s more difficult financial situation.

Audrey Morrison 00:11:01 You know, difficult financial situations can involve things like one person owning a business or sometimes, you know, people in the business together. But when one person owns the business, there’s a lot of things that can be hidden there. And so and the business has to be evaluated because that’s an asset. And then there’s the whole thing of it’s an asset, but it’s also an income source. So like, you know, where are you counting it. And you don’t want to double count it. So those are some of the complex areas. And I also when there’s pensions that have to be evaluated, it’s not just the number that’s on the pension statement. That’s not how you evaluate a pension in a divorce. So there’s a special calculation that has to be done to evaluate that. Yeah. Some other things are just maintenance and how that can be calculated. And there’s a thing called contractual maintenance. So in other words, there’s a formula in Colorado. And if this maintenance varies from state to state, we have a guideline here that’s it’s very helpful since we’ve had the guideline and there’s a calculation.

Audrey Morrison 00:12:01 But then some people are instead of saying, okay, I’ll collect this maintenance for ten years, assuming that they had like a 20 year marriage. Right. It’s usually half of the marriage length. But then as income goes up or down, like people recalculate it so often for both parties, they’d rather just have one number that this is how it’s going to be and not have to recalculate it or, you know, be susceptible to that. And so then we go through and calculate the amount, but then we discount it because it’s going to be paid upfront. And so there’s some negotiations around that. So those are just a couple of things that come to mind.

Betty Wang 00:12:35 I thought I read and I don’t know if I mean is this a myth that maintenance doesn’t continue once your full retirement age and can start collecting Social Security? Is that true or.

Audrey Morrison 00:12:46 That’s an excellent question. Excellent. And I’ve had to investigate that. So first of all, generally speaking, it goes until what an attorney would say is that a judge isn’t going to make somebody work beyond full retirement age.

Audrey Morrison 00:13:02 So full retirement age. Generally speaking, now is 67. And so they could assume that you’re going to work until 67 and you’re going to earn this much. And so this is what maintenance would be. But sometimes it can go beyond that age. And it’s a gray area. So I’ve looked up the law on that area just to, you know, educate myself. And it’s sort of a gray area in some cases. But generally it’s it’s assumed full retirement age.

Betty Wang 00:13:30 And that’s for the person who’s paying the maintenance, not the not the person receiving the maintenance. Or is it the person?

Audrey Morrison 00:13:37 It’s the person that’s paying it because they’re the ones that have to work, and then they’d be retired, and so then they shouldn’t have to pay their Social Security for their, you know, Expose. But. But I have seen things, especially when things are very unequal. Right. So somebody’s got high Social security, high assets. They’re in great shape. And the other person is living, you know, they may not even have Social Security.

Audrey Morrison 00:14:01 Then they can get half of their exposes. But, you know, half is can be pretty low and certainly not enough to live on. Right? Depending on how many what they got an asset. So I have seen things like that, but it’s not common.

Betty Wang 00:14:15 What other things have you seen that maybe like myths that people have about divorce or getting divorced? I mean, one was, you know, that it’s really expensive to do if you get an attorney, but as you’ve said, that’s kind of not the right. It’s too expensive not to have one. But are there other things that that women come to with these things that you’re like, well, that’s not really true. Or maybe it’s not true anymore, right, I don’t know.

Audrey Morrison 00:14:40 So maintenance is something that’s not well understood, you know, and that’s, you know, if your salaries are pretty equal, then there won’t be any maintenance. But if if a person’s salary is one’s a lot higher than the other, then it’s a calculation that tries to get you to the point where the person that’s earning more is getting like 60% of the pot, so to speak, and the person that’s earning less is basically getting about 40%.

Audrey Morrison 00:15:02 So that’s usually how that works out. So then what will happen? And I’m talking now especially in like a grave divorce where people are closer to retirement, is that they may skew the assets towards the person that’s going to have less money because they don’t have that opportunity to increase their career or anything versus like if it happened earlier in life, the divorce, you know, they don’t have time to rebuild afterwards, so they may get more assets at that point. Some of the other things that are not well understood is separate property. So if you went into the marriage and you had a for one already because you would work before you got married, the value of that for one, when you got married, that’s your separate property, then any appreciation in that during your marriage that’s considered marital property. And so it’s only the marital property that you’re breaking that you’re splitting. And also inheritances are considered separate property. But they have to be kept separate. So like in other words, if somebody inherited something, you know, like money from their maybe their parent passed away.

Audrey Morrison 00:16:08 If they then use that money to like pay the mortgage on an ongoing basis or they put it into a joint account, then it’s not separate anymore, then it’s considered marital property.

Betty Wang 00:16:21 Yeah, I think I heard someone calling it like it’s the chocolate milk situation. If you have a glass of milk and you add any sort of even if you add just one little drop, then it’s, you know, it’s muddied or it’s chocolate now.

Audrey Morrison 00:16:34 And so that’s where, you know, a couple can try to be fair with each other. And in mediation they can decide, well, that really was yours and you really should have that blah, blah, blah, blah. So it’s not as if there’s, you know the law overrides everything else legally. It’s then up for grabs, so to speak. But if you agree in mediation to something and you know the attorney, let’s say who’s writing it up, the mediator will write it up in such a way. And here, you know, here’s why. So the judge understands and makes a case for it.

Audrey Morrison 00:17:03 And, you know, it’ll generally be approved.

Betty Wang 00:17:05 With people getting divorced later in life. Maybe their kids are at the tail end or just entering college. I remember after freshman year of college, I had, you know, just a handful of friends. Their parents were getting divorced, right? They’re empty nesters. How does that typically work for for college payments? Is that something that’s is there a typical way to handle that, or is that a case by case or they figure that out in mediation.

Audrey Morrison 00:17:30 So what I say, especially if you’re, you know, in it like if you’re in it or that close, you want to talk about that in mediation. Right. And and potentially have that written in I mean, if they’re already in college, if people get divorced when their children are not at that point yet. So let’s say the kids are just young. They’re, you know, five and eight, then most attorneys won’t put that in the agreement because then it becomes something where if you say a husband are going to pay X percent and you wife are going to pay X percent, right, then it’s a case where legally you have to pay that and the children could actually sue you if you didn’t, you know, pay a certain amount.

Audrey Morrison 00:18:09 So they don’t they don’t want to get into that. And your circumstances can change. And there’s just so many things that are unknown. So they don’t generally put that in an agreement. But I think that it’s a good thing to talk about and maybe not put in the agreement, but have a general agreement of like, we’re going to contribute the amount of an in-state school or something like that just so that you’re, you know, on the same page as to what to expect, because otherwise it’s pretty hard to plan. I’ve worked with a number of people where they don’t really know what their X is going to do in terms of college, right? And so it’s a huge unknown. Right. And there are also things to do when you’re filling out the Fafsa. The person who earns less should be the person who fills it out. So that’s an important thing. The other important thing, when you have kids still at home, is just understanding and talking about how the extraordinary expenses are going to work for your children, because there’s just so many things like car, car insurance, phones, all those things are sort of called extraordinary, extraordinary.

Audrey Morrison 00:19:08 But you need to think about, you know, how you’re going to split those. And typically it would be that 60 over 40 ratio, you know, and or unless you earn the same then I guess would be 50 over 50. But you know, that’s something that needs to be considered when you’re going through a divorce and consider it in your budget. Because the other big piece, besides splitting the assets in the debt, is going through your income and expenses. And that’s always difficult because you don’t really know what your expenses are going to be afterwards. You know you’re going to be in a new living situation and you may not know, like, what am I even going to buy? Am I going to rent? How much is that going to cost? But you’re supposed to put and it’s confusing when you’re filling out the financial disclosures because you don’t know that yet. But you’re supposed to put what you think it’s going to be going forward, and then that’s what’s going to be important for a financial person to assist you with, or you to do for yourself to figure out what your budget’s going to be and how much you’re going to be able to afford in your new life.

Audrey Morrison 00:19:58 Right. You want to get yourself set up so that you’re good with cash flow, you know, post-divorce, but also that you have enough assets to retire, especially if it’s later in life. Because again, you don’t have enough. You don’t have as much time to rebuild after the divorce. So, you know, situating yourself so that you’ll be able to be okay for retirement is very important.

Betty Wang 00:20:23 Hi there. Hope you’re enjoying this episode of Betty’s Smart Friends. I wanted to share a quick money tip with you. The tip give each dollar a job. Give every dollar you earn a job. Some dollars will have the job of paying your taxes. Some dollars will have the job of paying your mortgage. Others saving for retirement. But don’t forget that fun. Self-care or buying your precious time back. Are valid and important jobs for your money. The key here isn’t to judge the job or how much goes there. It’s to be mindful of where your hard earned money is going and to make adjustments.

Betty Wang 00:21:04 If you discover it doesn’t align with your values and your goals. Hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. And remember, you’re not alone. Now back to the show. So imagine a lot of your work is around education too, because some some women have always taken the backs. They they know how the cash flow, they know what they’re spending, but they’re not really involved when it comes to investments or the long term retirement planning.

Audrey Morrison 00:21:35 Right. Projections. Right. Projections of what it’s going to look like. And what is your Social Security and understanding what your husband’s Social Security is as well. That should be part of the disclosure so that you know how that works. And again, you can if you’ve been married for more than ten years, then you can. You’re entitled to half of your ex-husband or ex-wife’s Social Security if it’s more. Than yours, if half of theirs is more than yours. But that’s not a lot of money.

Betty Wang 00:22:03 No, I mean, so Social Security is supposed to prevent you from being, you know, impoverished.

Betty Wang 00:22:09 But, yeah, it’s really not that. It’s not enough to live on for.

Audrey Morrison 00:22:12 Most half of it’s pretty low. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:22:14 Yeah. Half of it’s pretty low. What other unique things do you see with with older couples getting divorced? Other considerations that may not that may be different than than, say, if you’re in your 20s or early 30s. You know.

Audrey Morrison 00:22:29 Health insurance obviously is a big deal. And if one spouse is able to go on Medicare and the other one’s not old enough, then and they’re not working. You know, then that can be difficult. They’re really going to have to go on. The Affordable Care Act, ACA, because they’re not going to be able to you know, depending usually you have the option to be on the insurance, you know, post-divorce. But if the other person’s not working, you know, then that’s not there. So, you know, so when there’s the age difference that can really affect people as well. Having a business to sell, that’s a difficult one, right? Because you don’t really know what it’s going to sell for.

Audrey Morrison 00:23:07 It could be an upside or but there also could be a downside too. Right. So everybody’s sort of hedging your bets. It’s you know a little bit of a gamble right.

Betty Wang 00:23:15 Right. Well I mean you’re trying to to diversify the risk and the and the reward I guess.

Audrey Morrison 00:23:21 Right. And if there’s stock options, that’s the thing where you’re not legally allowed to put that in the other person’s name. So if it’s more amicable generally people do split those and it’ll just be still in the one spouse’s name. And then when they come, do they just split them, you know, evenly for those years that they agree upon, right? When it’s not amicable, it’s a whole different, you know, thing, then you still want to incorporate it in the value of the marital estate. But, you know, you’d have to, I guess, plan to get it from elsewhere. The, you know, take the money from somewhere else because you’re really balancing out the different assets. And again, the value of that won’t be known.

Audrey Morrison 00:23:57 Right. So you’re making a gamble on that. So you know those are some of the tough things. Yeah. Selling the house is always difficult figuring out. So often people, especially women want to keep the house. Yeah. And it’s not always the best choice. Right. Because it’s an asset. And sure it grows in value, but it’s not cash. And cash is king in a divorce, right? You need the actual money. And often, you know, you have to put money into a house versus, you know, providing cash for you. So it’s usually better, I think, you know, to not have that big asset. The other piece of it, too, is that you only get so much of a deduction for, you know, when you sell it then. So if you bought your house a while ago and it’s already gone up, you know, 400,000, right? If you guys sell it now, you’ll each be able to not, you know, have to have a gain on that.

Audrey Morrison 00:24:45 But if now you you’re going to like hold on to it and sell it in 5 or 10 years, then you’re going to make 400 or 500,000 gain, and you’re only going to be able to exclude 250,000 from paying tax on. It’s not necessarily a good money decision math decision, you know.

Betty Wang 00:25:02 Yeah. And that’s right. We know that the math doesn’t always win in these decisions.

Audrey Morrison 00:25:09 Right. Sometimes your emotions and your ties things and you feel bad because of you know, your kids are away at college and you know, they want some familiarity and this and that. So sometimes you can decide, okay, well, we’ll keep the house for 2 or 3 years, you know, and then we’ll sell it together. You know, people do do things like that, but you just have to usually that works. If it’s a very limited time, it doesn’t work if it’s going to be like a long time.

Betty Wang 00:25:37 Yeah, that makes sense. So let’s say a woman is contemplating divorce after 25 years of marriage.

Betty Wang 00:25:46 Like, where do they start? I mean, what you said. Women tend to look online. Do you have good resources there? Do they reach out to a KFA or an attorney first after like or do they do both? Ideally. I mean, in an ideal situation, what what what would you. Because if you’ve never been divorced, you don’t like you don’t you wouldn’t know where to start. So it’s like, who are the right people that should get involved? And I do think for some women, calling an attorney right away would feel like too big of a step. Right.

Audrey Morrison 00:26:21 Right. Right. I do have a lot of women that like, that’s they come to me and it’s kind of before they want to talk to an attorney, because they want to understand the finances and the math first. Or you can consult with an attorney, but, you know, if you’re not going to file, then there’s still that. Homework piece here you’ll want to do of like figuring that all out.

Audrey Morrison 00:26:42 If you know, if that’s your style. I mean, if you’re. If you feel confident, you know you’re going to do it. You can certainly then jump right in and and then go through it. Right. But I just know from my experience working with people that a lot of women in particular want to make sure first, you know, like see the math first and see how it could work out and understand how how the laws are. Because I work with a lot of people post-divorce as well that I haven’t worked with during their divorce. And that’s tougher if if you see where they made decisions that weren’t ideal. Right.

Betty Wang 00:27:17 Can you give examples of those? I mean, obviously like a big one is that sometimes attorneys will just split the pot at a high level, but not take into consideration the taxability of the assets. Right. I would imagine that’s a bigger one.

Audrey Morrison 00:27:30 The tax ramifications. Yeah. Another thing that attorneys don’t seem to focus on very much. But if you if you still have kids, you want to think about who’s going to get to claim head of household, right? If you have two children or more, then you can split your children and say, you know, okay, you’re going to claim one child and I’ll claim the other.

Audrey Morrison 00:27:49 And we both get to claim head of household. But that can make a big difference in your taxes, right? So so that’s a big deal. So if you’re earning more money, you know, especially you want to be able to have that head of household deduction. So I always like address that like and see who it’s going to be better for. And and you know kind of work through that for you.

Betty Wang 00:28:08 Sometimes you’re hired by the couple to look at things. Right. Or are you.

Audrey Morrison 00:28:11 Sometimes I’m hired by the couple and sometimes I’m hired by a mediator and I’m a financial neutral. So I just say this will be better for, you know, you, James, and this will be better for you, Jane. You know, and like, I kind of I let them both know, like, how how it could work, you know.

Betty Wang 00:28:27 Are there other big like, mistakes that I mean, I think that the keeping the house is you’ve talked about like keeping.

Audrey Morrison 00:28:34 The house the separate and the marital property.

Audrey Morrison 00:28:36 And then maintenance. Because a lot of times, you know, people don’t want to pay maintenance. The person who’s earning more and they don’t think they should have to. Sometimes it’s just because they think, well, I’m earning it. I, you know, I worked hard, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the person that stayed at home or didn’t, you know, work there, that’s considered that that was their agreement and they both were supporting that career 5050. So people especially, you know, that person might the one that’s not working is often the one that’s right. Doesn’t have the power in the relationship. And so they think that they’re going to agree to it. You know. And they think they need to or they should. You know, and so I think it’s important for people to understand that they’re entitled to that, you know, and to work through those calculations so that they know what they’re giving up if they, you know, say, oh, I don’t want it, you know, I don’t need.

Betty Wang 00:29:26 It. Well, especially since it’s it’s really hard to go back and change things. Right.

Audrey Morrison 00:29:31 You really can’t like Exceptional. It has to be like some sort of, like, malpractice kind of thing. You know, where you’ve gotten bad advice.

Betty Wang 00:29:38 So essentially, if they can, they should reach out to someone like you before they actually sign anything. If not before that, in the planning piece of it. Because you can prevent or at least point out different issues.

Audrey Morrison 00:29:55 Right. And I always tell people, right, if they’re in mediation, they may go to mediate a mediator together. And so they haven’t hired attorneys and they have a mediator there guiding them through it. But before they sign that agreement, they should have somebody look at that like an attorney that they can pay like a la carte just to review it, to make sure that they’re not making a big mistake. You know, and to also make sure things are clear, because that’s the other thing is sometimes people get divorced and they’ve gone through certain, you know, they’ve addressed what came to mind, but there’s other pieces that they’re just missing.

Audrey Morrison 00:30:25 And so then later those things happen and then they don’t really it’s unclear as to how exactly they’re going to deal with them. you know. And then, you know, other big things are the pension, right? And so, you know, does the person get to keep the pension. Or sometimes attorneys I’ve seen this like attorneys don’t really know how to value it and everything. So they’ll just say okay, well you’ll just split the pension 5050. Well that’s not necessarily the best thing for, you know, either party. It depends on the circumstances and what other resources there are. But I definitely wouldn’t just say split it 5050, you know, I’d value it. And then then you’d have that number, right. And you can kind of figure out what the next best step is. So I’m trying to think of all all the different.

Betty Wang 00:31:11 Well yeah. You’ve probably come across a lot of different situations. Are you only able for your particular practice. Are you only able to work in Colorado. Is does that so if you’re looking for a DFA or I mean I would say I mean I’m a certified financial planner, but I would say that you have much more experience and in-depth knowledge When it comes to divorce, I mean, I think having a financial planner is great, but when you’re going through something as specific in that changes, right? The rules change all the time.

Betty Wang 00:31:42 It’s probably in your best interest to also bring in, and I would assume that most financial planners would be okay with that. Right. You want.

Audrey Morrison 00:31:50 Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:31:51 Somebody advocating for your client who knows the idiosyncrasies of especially within your state. Right. Because it’s all different.

Audrey Morrison 00:32:00 And the thing is, like if you are a couple that has a financial planner, but that financial planner is representing both of you, then that’s a little bit of a dangerous situation to have that person giving advice. Right. They often most financial planners don’t want to get involved in that. Right. Because it’s tricky. Like they should not be talking to just one spouse and not the other. Right. Because then that would be like unfair. Right. And they’re they’re there to represent both of you if you hired them as a couple. Right. So often they would, you know, want you to talk to a specialist. And then afterwards some financial planners feel strongly like that. Now I should just work with one person and not both, because there can be situations where, you know, I’m working with John and John.

Audrey Morrison 00:32:48 He cancelled his insurance policy and I haven’t, you know, I’m not going to tell Mary, you know. And yeah, like, they’re they’re stuck in the middle of that kind of thing. So it can be pretty difficult. So that’s just something to think about as well, you know. So yeah, I’ve certainly worked with other people’s clients just through the divorce piece of it.

Betty Wang 00:33:09 And do you only practice with it for the divorce piece within Colorado?

Audrey Morrison 00:33:13 No, I’ve, I’ve helped people outside of Colorado. You know, so there’s some states where I’m more familiar with the law, but I also have resources to look it up. And I have software that works with like a number of states with their laws. There’s like 30 states, I think, in the software. So, you know, that’s helpful as well. So I’ve done I’ve helped people in other states as well.

Betty Wang 00:33:34 So if they’re not able to, you know, work with you. I know you’ve been you’re busy, but, you know, reach out and see.

Betty Wang 00:33:41 But if they’re they’re not a what what’s the gold standard for a woman to look for if they want to work with someone like you? Is it the DFA? Is it?

Audrey Morrison 00:33:51 Yeah, it would be the DFA. And you can they have a resource where you can look up and find cfas that are close to you? There’s a it’s an Institute of Divorce financial analysts, Idfa. But if you just googled find a DFA, it will come up. And you know, there’s like a I’ll put in my state, you know, find somebody close to me and then there’ll be a list of people and you can choose one that, you know, appeals to you. You think, you know, you would have you would feel good working with. So, yeah. And the thing is, in Colorado and Denver, Boulder area, you know, I know attorneys and things like that. So that’s helpful. You know and then attorneys know about judges in their area. So that’s what’s helpful when you’re working with local people, right? They might be more familiar with the resources in that particular area or judges and the way they tend to look at things.

Audrey Morrison 00:34:39 You know.

Betty Wang 00:34:39 How does that. Can you walk us through how you work with a person? Say one person retains you. How do you work with their professional team, which is, you know, presumably at least an attorney, right. But sometimes maybe a financial advisor, slash planner and also a CPA. Like, like how do you. Yeah. Where do you fit into that?

Audrey Morrison 00:35:03 Yeah. So I would work and you know, it’s interesting like sometimes the attorney might even hire me. Right. So then I’m working very closely with the attorney. But other times we’ll just like reach out and go through certain meetings with the attorney where, you know, we’re here’s what we would like to see in a settlement. Right. And then and explain why. And then that attorney is bringing that to, you know, either the other attorney or the mediation. So they’re kind of understanding the case and we go through it myself. The client and the attorney all together to come up with that strategy. You know, and so and that’s the way that it works.

Audrey Morrison 00:35:37 I’ve worked with CPAs just, you know, often when people are going to sell the house. So the CPA is intimate. Kind of knows your tax situation right from because you’ve worked with them as a couple. And so hopefully then in the year that you’re getting divorced, if you both trust that CPA, then we can work with that CPA to figure out like what your taxes should be, you know, kind of based on kind of allocating them, right, based on who’s earning what and who’s getting what deductions. Or you might have a lost carry forward or something like that. And who should get that. That’s another thing that you need to think about. It’s an asset to have a lost carry forward on your taxes. And so you want to, you know, negotiate that as part of the divorce as well. So I don’t typically like in terms of like person’s financial planner, I guess I would just work with them to find out what assets and liabilities the person has. You know that. That kind of thing.

Audrey Morrison 00:36:32 And if there’s any questions that came up because some people have unique types of investments, right. And so that gets a little bit trickier to understand. Unique things that are not like, you know on the in the market. And again, the other thing is business value. Because if you have a business then there’s all sorts of valuation things that have to happen. And that can be tricky. That’s can be very very tricky.

Betty Wang 00:36:55 I can see that being very very tricky for sure. Well we’ve covered a lot. I mean I think it’s all really, really helpful. Is there anything that you want to share that people should women thinking about divorce later in life should think about or know about before they?

Audrey Morrison 00:37:12 The other piece is just the emotional piece, right? Because it’s stressful. And just to know that there’s a lot of people going through it. And oftentimes you can find a support group, maybe through your if you have a therapist, but maybe just through, you know, meet up or I don’t know if Facebook does that, but, you know, just in your area there might be some sort of support group of women that have gone through divorce and that can be extremely beneficial.

Audrey Morrison 00:37:36 And that can also help you find a really good financial planner, a really good lawyer, a mediator. I mean, women tend to share those resources, right? And then they hear stories from each other, too, of like, this person was fantastic, right. And or this is what happened to me in my case. And, you know, people women share like that. I guess the one other thing that I forgot to bring up that I should just mention is, you know, I said typically the children aren’t a big issue in a divorce when you know, when you’re close to retirement later in life. But if you have a disabled child, then that’s a whole different story. And that can really be a difficult case to work through. And, you know, you want to get the right help to figure out how that should work. If you know one or both parents are still going to stay involved in this, you know, this child has ongoing needs.

Betty Wang 00:38:25 Yeah, that’s a good point.

Audrey Morrison 00:38:26 Yeah. So a lot to think about.

Betty Wang 00:38:28 Women would be so lucky to have you. You know all this and you have the empathy you have. You have the whole package.

Audrey Morrison 00:38:36 I love working with with women going through divorce and women post divorce. And so often, like, they just feel so empowered after the divorce. It’s I’m not going to lie. You know, it’s very difficult to go through. No matter what, no matter how amicable it is, there’s going to be grief there because, you know, it’s not. Even if you don’t like your person, you’re divorcing. You know, you still had an expectation of what your life was going to be like. And so you’re grieving that. And but then post divorce so often you see women just, you know, come to life and, you know, really become empowered. And it’s it’s it’s great.

Betty Wang 00:39:10 That’s awesome. Well, I do like to ask closing questions for all the folks who are on my podcast. And that is especially with what you’re doing.

Betty Wang 00:39:20 You’re around people going through these stressful, painful emotional life events. How do you maintain your own personal balance and peace?

Audrey Morrison 00:39:30 I think just through, you know, having good quality time with my friends, you know, to be able to talk about things and having, you know, people to share things with and, you know, that kind of thing. Taking time for myself to, you know, sharing good friendships and doing fun things together.

Betty Wang 00:39:47 And then my last question is, I mean, you and I have talked about this as financial advisors who work with folks who are retiring. Studies show that hobbies, interests outside of your profession or, you know, for women who may have stayed at home for their children. Right. What are some interests and hobbies that you do? I’m, you know, oh, they find that these people who have interests in hobbies going into retirement are so much happier. Right. They’re more content. And so I think some of us have been so involved with raising our children or in work or both that we really haven’t thought about.

Betty Wang 00:40:27 These things are there. Are there hobbies or interests that you do that that might be?

Audrey Morrison 00:40:32 I mean, you know, I’m exactly at that point because I just became an empty nester. But I well, I for sure really like to hike and and be outside and, and bike and I like bike some and I. Garden but and I hike a lot. Go to the mountains and. Yeah. And and have fun with my dog and I just got a new paddle board kayak that I’m hoping I’m going to do more of. So and then spending quality time with friends and I, you know, I have a book club and things like that. But I do think that. Right. They’ve even shown it right, that women friendships are the most important things. You know, both for women and for men. So I think that having, you know, friends that you can share both the good times and the bad times with really makes a big difference to in our quality of life and our ability to get through the tough times and enjoy the good times.

Audrey Morrison 00:41:21 And yeah, as far as hobbies, they haven’t, you know. So that’s that’s what I have now. But then I always wonder, oh, should I start knitting or should I start doing this? Those kinds of things I haven’t figured out yet. I don’t have enough time yet, I guess.

Betty Wang 00:41:36 Yeah. Well, I mean, doing all those things takes time. And it’s, it’s, it’s just good to to sort of think about what, what what’s out there. And you pick and you pick what you like.

Audrey Morrison 00:41:47 Yeah. And I have been traveling more. So that’s nice. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:41:50 Where is the best place to find you or contact you if they’re trying to, to get in touch. Yeah.

Audrey Morrison 00:41:56 on the internet, I think I have a website for the two businesses which you can have a link to. Right. And, yeah. Sending me an email is is great. There’s a place on the website where you can do that, or somebody will put the link out there for my email and then, yeah, we could set up a time to talk.

Audrey Morrison 00:42:13 I do a free 30 minute introductory call where we just talk about, you know, what might make sense if and if it makes sense to work together and,

Betty Wang 00:42:22 Well, thank you so much for your time. This was really informative, and I think we’ll help a lot of people, so thank you, Audrey.

Audrey Morrison 00:42:28 Thank you. Thank you.

Betty Wang 00:42:30 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Betty Smart Friends. I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation and that you learned something new. You can connect with us on social media to stay updated on future episodes. Share your thoughts and join our community of smart friends. You can find us on Instagram at Betty Financial, and don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode! If you are feeling ready to be more empowered and less alone in your financial life, please schedule a complimentary 15 minutes with me. The link is in the show notes. Please see the show notes for important disclosures regarding BW financial planning and this episode. Until next time, remember you are not alone.

Betty Wang 00:43:16 We got you.