EPISODE OVERVIEW:

I had an incredible conversation with Kim Burnett, who made a remarkable career pivot from event planning to becoming a death doula and founding Good Death Matters.

Kim’s mission? Helping people achieve what she calls a “good death” – breaking through cultural taboos to have honest conversations about one of life’s most inevitable experiences.

TIME STAMPS:

[4:27] Role of a Death Doula

• Responsibilities of a death doula 
• Emotional support

[21:49] Dying Planning 

• Planning for death
• Communicating wishes to families

[35:55] Tough Decisions 

• Hearing difficult decisions 
• Perspectives from others

[36:17] Maintaining Balance

• Maintaining peace 
• Importance of boundaries

[42:24] Ensuring Safety

• Background checks
• Acquiring insurance

KEY TAKEAWAYS: 

• The vital role death doulas play in providing emotional support and guidance
• Why end-of-life planning is about honoring your values, not just logistics
• How to navigate difficult family dynamics when emotions and viewpoints clash
• The importance of conscious dying – transforming life’s final chapter into a meaningful personal journey
• Breaking cultural barriers to have open, honest conversations about our final wishes
• Death is the one experience we’ll all share, yet it remains one of our biggest taboos. Kim’s work reminds us that how we die matters just as much as how we live.

GUEST INFO: 

Kim Burnett, Death Doula

8/18/2025 Update: Kim has retired and moved to France! We wish her the best! Kim suggests going to the International End of Life Doula Association (“IELDA”) to learn more about Death Doula services or find a Death Doula in your area.

RESOURCES:

• Join Betty in a free consultation call for your financial goals
• Subscribe to the Betty’s Smart Friends YouTube Channel
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• Visit my website for more info
• Follow us on LinkedIn

Betty Wang is an investment adviser representative of BW Financial LLC, a registered investment adviser registered in the State of Colorado. Registration does not imply a certain level of skill or training. The views and opinions expressed are as of the date of publication and are subject to change. The content is for informational or educational purposes only, and is not intended as individualized investment advice. This information should not be relied upon as the sole factor in an investment-making decision. You are encouraged to consult with a financial professional to address your specific needs and circumstances.

TRANSCRIPTION:

Betty Wang 00:00:06 Hi everyone, and welcome to today’s episode of Betty Smart Friends. I’m Betty Wang, your host. Today we’re diving into the heart of what it means to have a good death. Our guest today is Kim Burnett, the founder of Good Death Matters, who began this meaningful work in 2020 after helping both a close friend and her mother navigate their final days. With over two decades of experience as an event planner and project manager, she found herself uniquely equipped to handle the logistics of death from paperwork to memorial planning. This experience led her to become a trained death doula and after loss professional, dedicated to supporting individuals and their loved ones before, during and after death. Join us as we discuss how creating space to honor life can transform the dying process, bringing comfort and reassurance to those in their final days, we’ll explore the importance of end of life planning. The role of a death doula, and how to navigate the emotional and practical aspects of death with grace and dignity. Stay tuned for an enlightened conversation that promises to change the way you think about death and dying.

Betty Wang 00:01:16 Let’s get started. Hi Kim, welcome to the podcast.

Kim Burnett 00:01:20 Hi. Thanks. I’m glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:01:24 Well, could you start by telling us a little more about your personal journey and what inspired you to start? Good. Death matters. Yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:01:32 So I retired from my career in the non-profit sector in May of 2020, just at the beginning of the pandemic. And in July of 2020, my mother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And then in the fall of 2020, a good friend of mine was also diagnosed with terminal cancer. And so even though it was the middle of the pandemic, I began doing caregiving for both of them. And it was one of those things where I, you know, it felt very comfortable for me to be there. And actually, I remember one day my mom said, the only way a mother can. She said, you know, you’re actually pretty good at this.

Betty Wang 00:02:13 I didn’t expect you to be, but you really are.

Kim Burnett 00:02:17 Exactly. It’s like, is that a compliment? I don’t know, but, yeah, I mean, I think I just it came, you know, I just realized it was a lot of people aren’t very comfortable dealing with sickness and death and taking care of people. And for whatever reason, it was it came very naturally to me. So I began to take classes and look into it. And right around that time, I think there was an article in The New York Times about death doulas so that I was like, oh, I could actually get trained in how to do this. So that really became my my journey. And then I learned more about, you know, I was curious about all the kind of the paperwork component of after someone dies and the after law segment. And then I discovered another network of professionals that were working on that too. So it was kind of serendipitous and then worked in hospice and just got more experience.

Betty Wang 00:03:04 So how did your experiences with your friend and your mom, how did that shape your approach? Those are very personal, and I’m sure your relationships with your clients become very, very personal.

Betty Wang 00:03:14 But how does that inform how you care for your your clients?

Kim Burnett 00:03:18 Yeah, I think I think the thing that struck me was how much the bureaucracy of death gets in the way of being present. And that especially with my friend, but also with my mom being able to take on that bureaucratic component of it, you know, just opened up space for them to be with their loved ones, to just, you know, be able to sit in the sun and, you know, enjoy their day and not worry about, you know, filling out that form or making those arrangements or any of those kinds of things. So that really became a motivation. You know, I mean, and that’s kind of how I took the name for my business is that, you know, I think having a good death matters. And, you know, just as you have a good life and you don’t, the last thing you want is to be, you know, frantic, you know, to be kind of overwhelmed.

Kim Burnett 00:04:15 And you want it to be, you know, you don’t want people to worry, you know, I mean, like, that’s the last thing they, you know, they’ve got enough on their mind, you know, without having to worry about all these logistics.

Betty Wang 00:04:27 Could you explain more about what exactly a death doula does? I mean, I don’t know if that everybody’s familiar with, like, how do you get introduced to the family or the person who has the illness? Like, what does that all look like? Yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:04:43 So there’s a lot of different kinds of death doulas. But, you know, we’re really, you know, at the core, I think, to be an advocate for our clients. So and I think also just, you know, a lot of people, this is their first death. So to have someone who, you know, I mean, they’re only going to die once you’re gone. I mean, a birth doula, like, you know, there are birth doulas and people have had babies before, but this is often, you know, their first death or their we’re there for the death of their parents or something.

Kim Burnett 00:05:12 They have some kind of experience. But, you know, so so some death doulas are very motivated, provide a lot of support in the spiritual realm. So they are kind of, you know, they’ll perform at home funerals, they’ll do more pre and post kind of, you know, spiritual ceremonies. And I would say that I am more in the practical doula kind of comport where is, you know, I’m really there to kind of guide someone through the process to help them get ready to record their wishes, to help them to articulate, you know, kind of their wishes in a way that they haven’t thought about before, to be there as support for them and their loved ones at time of their transition, and then afterwards to support their loved ones, you know, helping them with the grief issues and helping them with just, you know, kind of all along the way, the paperwork issues that are involved and how people find me is really through referrals. So, you know, I work with the walking well who are interested in just getting their estates organized.

Kim Burnett 00:06:20 So it’s a kind of an enhancement, you know, when someone meets with their estate attorney, they’re doing their, you know, kind of their will and, you know, kind of their, you know, their medical power of attorney and all of those kinds of forms. But there’s additional things like not necessarily like maybe an attorney will say, it would be really great if you wrote down who you want to get these various items or, you know, thoughts about, you know, have you thought about your memorial or whatever, but it’s it’s not the primary focus of that work. And so I will spend a lot more time with that, as well as trying to get like, you know, I have a list of everybody should have these 25 bits of information about you, you know. So and that includes things like where is the key to your safe deposit box. And you know, and some attorneys.

Betty Wang 00:07:06 Will do the title of your car that people forget about that one.

Kim Burnett 00:07:09 Yeah, yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:07:10 All of those kind of things. So I’ll get referred from a state attorneys and financial planners and tax accountants. Then people with terminal illnesses through their oncology support team, they refer to me. People find me through my website, you know, I mean, it’s mostly word of word of mouth. I mean, I again, in my business, I mean, friends and family might be able to pass on my services, but a lot of times it because it is ending in people’s death, you don’t necessarily get.

Betty Wang 00:07:38 Referrals.

Kim Burnett 00:07:38 Right? Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:07:39 Well, right. can you explain how like, let’s say, you know, my parent was diagnosed with something, could you walk us through the process of how we’d actually what that might look like and how that relationship works? Because I think I mean, I’m so glad you brought up the practical side of. Death. Because especially I mean, I think the word death doula or the people think it’s woo woo stuff like it’s very yeah, crystals. And not that there’s not a place for that, but they don’t realize all these practical things that you’re addressing as well as being there to support the family or whoever.

Betty Wang 00:08:17 Can you tell us how that process sort of works? And yeah, and a typical I know that there’s everyone’s going to be different, but how it might work for somebody who’s, let’s say, their parents dying or was diagnosed with something terminal and they want somebody to help them through this because it’s obviously emotional for the child and the parent.

Kim Burnett 00:08:41 Yeah. So a lot of times I’ll try to make my client be the person who is actually dying because I’m really there to represent and capture their wishes. So, you know, after doing kind of initial scope, I go through a very it takes about an hour kind of questionnaire. And just to really understand, you know, everything they’ve done like you know, do they have a medical power of attorney. Do they have a, you know, a will? Who is their financial plan. You know, that, you know, kind of that stuff. Have they made arrangements for if they want a burial or a cremation or any of that, or have they given thought to the memorial? So everything end of life that I would try to understand.

Kim Burnett 00:09:22 Then I would ask like, you know, kind of more, you know, do you have a 401? Do you have a pension? Are you receiving Social Security or, you know, kind of where what’s the kind of scope of your assets kind of what you know, what’s happening there? What kind of, you know, liabilities do you have in terms and kind of whose names are on what, you know? So what I’m trying to gather is, you know, do they have social media accounts and, you know who has access. You know. Do they have a smartphone? Do they have a computer? Do people have access to that? You know, just to really understand, what do they have in their name that we can begin to, you know, make sure that survivors will have access to what are the things that they don’t need to have that we could actually shut down? You know, do they have mileage points on airlines? You know, I mean, just everything that that’s kind of in in that scope.

Kim Burnett 00:10:22 And so ahead of time, the things that they haven’t done, I’m very interested to really articulate, you know, help them articulate as much as they can. People will also say, you know, I’ll say, tell me about the memorial that you want. And they’ll say, oh, I don’t care. I’ll be dead, you know? And I’m like, okay, but let me back up and tell you why. You know, the more decisions you make now, the easier it’s going to be for your loved ones afterwards, because they’re going to be in the grips of grief, and the last thing they want to do is figure out what you would want. You know.

Betty Wang 00:10:54 As a practical matter, I’ve been parts of conversations where they’re. Trying to say, well, I think mom would want this. And it’s stressful for them because they want to. Honor their mother. But you’re right. They don’t know. And.

Kim Burnett 00:11:09 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and sometimes. Not everybody’s in agreement what mom would have wanted.

Kim Burnett 00:11:14 Right. So that creates like. A whole other level. So getting it down in paper in as much detail and. I mean, I’ve had families say to that that. This to me, it’s like this roadmap is so fabulous because like, you know, down to like the flowers they wanted the pallbearers to be wearing, you know, I mean, like and that was just helpful. People just knew what to do. It was like a guidebook, you know. And so really getting people to do that and thinking about music or whatever, but then also backing up from that and making all these arrangements because people will say, oh, I just want to be cremated. And I’m like, okay, well, let’s, you know, let’s get more specific. But, you know, I also think we spend time talking about like. So if you if you only had two weeks to live, what are the relationships that are important in your life and how would you want to, you know, what would you want to say in those final two weeks? What would you want to do in those final two weeks? And people think like, oh, I’d want to write a letter or I’d want to, you know, ask for forgiveness for this or whatever.

Kim Burnett 00:12:14 And, you know, I can help them write those letters. But I also find that just by asking that question, they begin to do that work. Now, instead of putting it off, you know, and and that’s something I do even with the walking. Well, right. Is to say if you had and this is the conscious dying component, you know, if you only had two weeks, what are the relationships that matter and what would you want to say or do with those people? So I have a client right now who I was hired to by their son to actually do oral histories of his parents. And yeah, they’re immigrants and they have a really fascinating life story. And so but then as part of that process, he said, you know, will you also ask, you know, kind of about their memorial and what they want? And so I did that. And one of the things that came up when I said, you know, what’s something that’s left undone in your life that you would like to do? It came up that, you know, they wanted to spend more time with their children.

Kim Burnett 00:13:15 And so I just got an email from my client saying, I don’t know what you said, but my dad and I just went on a trip together for the first time in years. You know, I mean, so it’s like just asking that question makes people like, what are you waiting for? You know. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:13:31 Well, I imagine it gives you a focused and purposeful life for yourself when you’re a part of these conversations. Yeah. Yeah. And how does that work with all of the other folks that are involved? Right. There’s possibly hospice and there’s, you know, the attorneys and sometimes a financial planner, there’s an accountant. Do you meet with all of them or how does that? I mean, I’m sure it’s different for each situation. Is there? How do you. Have you seen it work?

Kim Burnett 00:13:59 Yeah. I mean, I think it’s, you know, with hospice, I provide non-medical support. So it’s mostly that they know that I’m, you know, that I’m there.

Kim Burnett 00:14:07 I’m part of the team. You know, I let hospice kind of do their thing. After someone dies, hospice will come very quickly and, you know, kind of. And then be gone. I mean, that they don’t really have, you know, that’s not part of their thing. So, so really being there to smooth over that transition, I find, because that can be pretty jolting to families to just be like, wait a minute, where did all that support go? And I think that’s one of the big misconceptions about kind of what hospice can and can’t do. And hospice is amazing service. But they’re also every hospice I’ve ever interacted with is pretty stretched, you know. Yeah. So I’m able to spend more time kind of with that non-medical emotional support than maybe they’re able to to give with regards to financial and legal professionals. If someone doesn’t have a will, I always try to set up just a complimentary consultation with an attorney to see if that’s something that’s needed. You know, before we do anything in terms of after someone’s past.

Kim Burnett 00:15:13 We meet with their, you know, financial team and their legal team to just be like, okay, this is what we think is going on. Does this make sense? You know, is this the right plan of action? So everybody’s on the same page, you know. So I think that’s it’s more collaborative with everybody I think.

Betty Wang 00:15:32 Like it’s going back to, you know, the memorial and burial wishes. Do you actually do the calling for them to set up the or do you just put a plan into place for them to say, okay, do you need to call this funeral services home just to get or or is it just kind of a checklist for that? Yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:15:53 So I, I mean, it really depends on the client. But I mean, again, my goal, my purpose is to take as much of that away as I can. So, you know, so with one client we went on a site visit together to, you know, for her to make that decision for another client, she wanted to do a donation, a body donation.

Kim Burnett 00:16:12 So I just got the paperwork, we filled it out, and I made all of those arrangements in Colorado. There’s a lot of options in terms of body disposition, which is kind of a wonky word, but that is what it is. And so it’s just kind of letting people be aware, like, so people aren’t aware, you know, that we have water cremation in Colorado, which is a so a water cremation is a more ecologically friendly way to do cremation, where you are actually the body is put into an alkaline mixture. And basically there’s a water residue. Rather than burning gases, you know, kind of fiery gases anyway. So there’s a company that does that. You know, a couple places that do that. And so it’s just. Yeah. And so like, they take the water afterwards and put it in the fields and, you know, for wildflowers and families can come a couple of times a year and pick the wildflowers. It’s a beautiful alternative. So, you know, but there’s other kinds of things that they can do.

Kim Burnett 00:17:07 So yeah, I mean, I’m more than willing to make the calls, more than willing to set up the site visits. However, they need to be able to make that decision. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:17:16 So what happens? Let’s say mom dies. Hospice has kind of taken their stuff. And you come in. What are you doing that day? Or how are you? Yeah. You know, helping that situation. Because that’s an awful hard day.

Kim Burnett 00:17:34 Yeah. I mean, and one of the things I wanted to say about the, the, the team is that, you know, there’s people who come in at different points along the process and then you don’t see them again. And, you know, and one of the things one of the services I say I provide is that I’m with you every step of the way. Right. So I’m with you at the, you know, ahead of before your death when you’re meeting with lawyers, and maybe there’s the hospice team that’s there or whatever. I’m with you at the time of transition, which maybe hospice is there, but your lawyer is not there.

Kim Burnett 00:18:02 You’re, you know, and I’m with you after your death when you’re back again with the lawyers, but the hospice is not there, you know, and there’s no I mean, other than family members, there’s nobody who’s going to be there for, you know, through that whole thing to really know your person, your loved one. But to your point, in terms of day of. So a client will call, you know, I’ll get notified that someone is kind of in their last stages. And hospice normally can call that. And at the time of their transition hospices. If hospice is not there, we hospice is called because they have to be the one to report the death. I mean, assuming they’re on hospice. Not. That isn’t always the case. And they call them mortuary. And then hospice will pretty much wrap up their deal, right? They’ll, you know, they kind of have a responsibility, but then they’re they’re gone. And the family isn’t. Typically they’re waiting for the mortuary to come to transport the body.

Kim Burnett 00:18:58 And I find that that is one of the hardest times. Right? Is like your person is in another room. Everybody’s kind of in shock. It’s, you know, there’s a lot of unknowns. There’s a lot of questions. There’s a lot of need for someone to just be making tea or when transport comes, I really encourage the family to be in another room or to take a walk or whatever, because it’s just kind of a jarring experience to see your the person that you’ve loved be be moved out of the house or wherever they are. And then, you know, one of the first things I’ll do is try to take any of the medications that were not picked up, you know, arrange for those to be safely and securely disposed of. So those things aren’t still in the house, you know. I mean, I think whatever people need to have happen at that point that they feel comfortable doing however they want that room to be left. You know, I’m there for them. I’m also trained to support medical aid and dying here in Colorado.

Kim Burnett 00:20:00 So that’s also known as death with dignity. So people with terminal diseases who’ve been given less than six months to live, they can choose to take a prescribed medication to end their life. And I can be an attendant in that. So I can help with the paperwork and the process and then actually be there to mix the medication. The patient has to take it themselves. That’s by law, but I can be there to support that process.

Betty Wang 00:20:25 Wow. I didn’t realize that.

Kim Burnett 00:20:27 Yeah. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:20:28 That’s heavy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, can you go on vacation?

Kim Burnett 00:20:35 Yeah. I mean, I do always in my closet. I’m like, you know, if I’m available. These are the thing. Yes. Yes.

Betty Wang 00:20:41 Okay. Are you just always on call?

Kim Burnett 00:20:45 No, no I can’t. It can’t be always on call. But I mean, I do, you know, for example, I will tell people like, these are times that I’m not going to be available. So if I know if somebody is in that situation, I will refer to them to someone else who can support them.

Kim Burnett 00:20:59 Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:21:00 Hi listeners. Hope you are laughing and learning from this episode of Betty Smart Friends. Here’s a quick tip. Maintain an emergency fund. No matter how much you earn, having a financial cushion or an oh shit fund is key. Try to save 6 to 8 months worth of living expenses in a liquid, easily accessible account for the times that life unexpectedly punches you in the face. Thanks for being a listener. Now back to the show. Well, you and I have talked before, and I love the term that you’ve used. The conscious dying, the conscious dying planning. You’ve kind of talked about why it’s important, but what are some things that people overlook? Yeah, that maybe they haven’t thought about. You’ve already brought up a lot of good points.

Kim Burnett 00:21:49 Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I think I talked about, you know, not putting off to till tomorrow what could be done today in terms of your loved ones. You know, I mean, I just recently had a friend, you know, who died very suddenly and it was like.

Kim Burnett 00:22:03 But I just saw them a week ago. You know, and you just you don’t know. So it’s like you need to be. Yeah. Just living in that moment. And that’s part of the conscious dying process is that, you know, I think it’s, as I said, articulating what you want for your memorial. Oh, one of the godsend is people who’ve actually made a list of who they want to get, what you know and why. Like, I mean, that is just, again, it’s another roadmap that people don’t think about. But, you know, I mean, I had an experience in my own life where my grandmother passed away. And, you know, they came up with the process to distribute her jewelry, only to find out like two months later, that she had made a list but hadn’t told anybody about it. Oh my gosh.

Betty Wang 00:22:50 Yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:22:51 And so then my dad was like, should I call back so-and-so? And I’m like, no, it’s done. It’s like, you know, don’t you?

Betty Wang 00:22:58 Yeah, that’s an awkward conversation.

Kim Burnett 00:23:02 But, you know. I mean, so, I mean, and that’s the other thing is, I guess I’m saying here is and then when you do make these plans, make sure people know that you have done this, you know, share that information. You know, people think, oh, it’s morbid, but people need to know, you know. I mean, that you’ve gone to the trouble to do that. I think the other thing that we spend time with is helping people, either doing a legacy project or just talking to them about, you know, what are you most proud of? What are you you know, what do you wish had gone differently? You know, what are the values that guided your life. And and whether they turn that into their own obituary that they write for themselves, which, again, is a great gift to your survivors who are being asked to do that at a height of grief or they just or they just have those points. So when they go to write it, they know what mattered to that person.

Kim Burnett 00:23:58 That’s another really, really great gift to give to people. And I think it helps people begin to get closure, you know, and begin to let go to do that kind of life review. But, you know, I mean, I think it’s not a bad thing to do at every birthday, you know, I mean, as we are consciously dying, right, is to say, is to take a beat and do a life reflection. Somebody just asked me that, like, what? What are you what are you most proud of in your life? And it was really an interesting thing to think about, like, oh, there was this and there was this. And I’m like, yeah, I should write that down, you know?

Betty Wang 00:24:38 Yes. Just so that I remember that. Yeah. No. It’s nice. I mean, I would imagine there’s some of us with our families that bringing up these questions are very uncomfortable for not only the adult child, but also for the elderly parent, you know.

Betty Wang 00:24:58 And in my culture, you don’t talk about death. It’s like asking to die, right? It’s it’s very it’s a big no no. So I, I mean, I would assume that sometimes hiring somebody like yourself might help with that because it takes that emotionality out of it. I mean, have you seen that? What have you noticed?

Kim Burnett 00:25:21 It’s hard. I mean, I you know, again, maybe it’s because it’s me and it’s my family, but I feel like sometimes I’m a huge failure because I can’t get my father to do x, Y, and Z. You know, it’s like he’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s nice. But yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I, you know, people because people say, how do I get my parents to start talking about this stuff is, is to actually talk about what you’re doing, you know, and to say, you know, I was talking with a friend and I, you know, just did my will.

Kim Burnett 00:25:52 But then I took the time to, you know, make a list of some of the things that are important to me that I want to make sure to go to, you know, the right people and say, you know, have you thought about doing something like that or or just kind of, you know, thinking about telling them why you thought it was important for you to do that and like, and the piece that gave you or whatever. I mean, coming from your own personal experience about any of your planning is a way to open up a conversation with them about it. I mean, I think the thing that is upsetting to me is so many times people don’t want to talk. You know, some people don’t want to talk about death with their children, in part because they think it’s like kids are wanting. Oh, don’t worry about it. You’ll get the money, you know, or whatever. Like, that’s what.

Betty Wang 00:26:39 I think sometimes. Yeah. Kids, that’s the implication that you want to know how much.

Kim Burnett 00:26:45 Money am I, right?

Betty Wang 00:26:46 And when what is not the case where you’re trying to come from a place of love. I’ve dealt with a state settlement, and it’s tough when you don’t know the people’s wishes. Right? Even with the legal document that says this, it covers kind of a blanket, but it doesn’t cover the things that maybe have special meaning to you or I mean, even to the furniture in your house. Like, where does that go? It’s all these things that I think folks don’t think about.

Kim Burnett 00:27:18 Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you know, and even, you know, you know, even if you don’t say who can get what, you know, you could specify how you want those decisions to get made, you know, whether it’s a game where, you know, you’ve seen these games where people take turns and they have a certain, you know. Quote unquote, number of. Amount of money or whatever that they be willing to put down on an item. You know, and it’s like you begin to get a sense like, you know, I’m going to put all my.

Kim Burnett 00:27:45 Chips in for that one chair because I really want that one chair, you know, or it’s just like a, a guidance from the parents or from the loved ones about how they want those things to be determined.

Betty Wang 00:27:56 That’s just fun. I mean, that’s kind of a fun way to do something that’s probably pretty painful.

Kim Burnett 00:28:01 Yeah, yeah. Because then you understand, like, you know, it’s not that every, you know, everybody wants that chair, but there’s somebody who really wants that chair, you know? And it just kind of is another way to think about it. But I think the other thing that I’ve seen is kind of going back to your, you know, kind of talking about in your culture that even talking about death is bringing it on. I mean, it’s the same thing. And, you know, I have friends in Jewish cultures. You don’t you don’t decorate a baby’s room before the baby is born. I mean, I think you know that you don’t invite death. But I think for children of second generation immigrants and further down, we’re further away from these traditions, you know.

Kim Burnett 00:28:42 So part of the conversation is, I know these things. I’m not familiar, I don’t know. And I really if you can help me make sure I’m, you know, doing what you would like or how you know, you were raised. Please tell. You know, please, I need you to tell me, because I wasn’t brought up in that, you know, as close to that culture as you were.

Betty Wang 00:29:04 So I said, I’m going to use that. I mean, because.

Kim Burnett 00:29:09 They just get lost. I mean, and you know what I mean? And again, this client that that I worked with who asked me to ask about his, what his parents wanted, I mean, that was part of the reason was because he’s like, I know there’s stuff I’m supposed to do, but, like, I don’t know the details. I need the details. Like, you know, and they were very forthcoming. They’re like, oh, no, no, this is how it goes.

Kim Burnett 00:29:29 You know, because they’ve seen it for their parents. So. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:29:33 How does that sound when parents or one of your clients gets gifted these services, do you find a lot of buy in or is it just, you know, with financial planning? Sometimes people want to gift financial plans. And what my colleagues and I have seen is when that happens, they’re not as invested in the process. Yeah. And the value is not that there’s no value, but it’s just not as powerful without them seeking out the help. Is that similar to yours?

Kim Burnett 00:30:04 Yeah, I think that’s really quite wise because I think, you know, so I mean, one of the things I do is I talk to the I talk to the people who who are being gifted these services and said, you know, this is this is what your person wants. And, you know, do you think, you know, this is what I could do? Is this going to be helpful to you at all or how do you feel about that? And then it’s it’s funny because I just had someone who reached out to me this morning about this, and I said, why don’t you let me just talk to this person, you know, for 30 minutes as a consultation and see if there’s, you know, before you go and spend your money, you know, to do this as is.

Kim Burnett 00:30:43 Let’s like, see if they actually really think that this could be useful, you know, because nobody wants to do that. I mean, it’s it’s just frustrating. Then you’re a nag.

Betty Wang 00:30:53 Well, yeah. And I think it’s just part of we want to be a purpose of you of use. Right. Not we’re not doing our jobs to just make money. Right? Right.

Kim Burnett 00:31:05 Yeah. I mean, and.

Betty Wang 00:31:05 That’s not at all like I, I’ve, I’ve told people I’m like, well, if you just want to give something that I’m sure there’s plenty of other professionals out there that will be happy to take your money for. Yeah, for not a lot of work, but yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:31:20 And I, I mean, and I think it’s just mostly I mean, I, you know, I’ve had clients who’ve reached out to me and then, you know, for whatever reason, they aren’t ready to go through. And it’s and it’s like, that’s fine. I mean, just, you know, it’s it’s it’s also it’s a lot, you know, I mean, and I think, you know, what I’ve noticed is that there’s a tipping point where people are ready, you know, and that’s part of the letting go process.

Kim Burnett 00:31:42 And, you know, well-meaning people will bring, you know, will talk to me about somebody and, and, you know, I’m like, yeah, but they’re not they’re not at the point where they’re ready to let this go. They’re still fighting the good fight, you know.

Betty Wang 00:31:56 So and what about, you know, you’re an advocate for the client. What about when you see, you know, maybe a strange family members. Is that somewhere where it’s good to have this outside perspective that you’re involved in? You’ve talked to the person. Do you feel like sometimes as a sort of outside of the family consultant, that that could help smooth some of the maybe the, the rough spots when it comes to estranged family members?

Kim Burnett 00:32:26 It’s. Yeah, it’s tricky anyway. But yeah, it’s tricky anyway. But I mean, I really, I, I mean, again, it’s like a mantra. I’m just like so and so wanted this, you know, and I mean, I, I see what you’re saying, but I’m here for them.

Kim Burnett 00:32:43 And that client has probably tipped me since some of the issues that might be there. So there are things that I have done to prepare for certain situations. But yeah, I mean, the more I know about the family dynamics, the better it is because I can try to come up with ahead of time, you know, kind of thinking about strategies to kind of smooth those things over. But I think it’s always good. I mean, people are on better behavior because I’m in the room, you know, like they don’t necessarily want to with a stranger, quote unquote, you know, so that can help things too. But but it’s also good to have somebody who’s neutral, who can say, I think we should all let you know, leave the room and let so-and-so be, you know, or let’s all just be quiet and, you know, I mean, I guess people don’t know how to be around someone who’s dying to. So it’s like talking about, you know, making people very aware that, like, the very last sense to go is the sense of hearing, you know.

Betty Wang 00:33:42 Oh, really?

Kim Burnett 00:33:43 Yeah. So, you know, I mean, being very mindful of what is happening in the room where the person is transitioning is really important.

Betty Wang 00:33:53 That’s. Wow. Yeah. I did not know that. Are there other things that maybe people should know that we haven’t talked about today that you’d like to share?

Kim Burnett 00:34:03 I think like one of the things that I especially say to people after someone’s past is you have time, you know, like people feel like they have to just start right away and do all this paperwork and deal with the stuff in the house and all. And there’s like, there is no timeline. They can do it whenever and however they want. And, you know, I mean, other than contacting a couple people like Social Security and, you know, but for the most part, you know, nothing has to happen tomorrow. They don’t give themselves enough time. I think it’s also really important to remind people that especially someone dealing with a terminal illness, to try to keep coming back to what they want their quality of life to be, you know, because they can get swept up in the medical treadmill.

Kim Burnett 00:34:53 And at some point you you just really have to be like, how do you want to spend your time? You know, I mean, I remember saying this to my mom is like, you know, we know you have a limited amount of time. Do you want to be spending, you know, 80% of that in a doctor’s office? And she’s like, no. And I’m like, well, then we need to come up with some, you know, let’s come up with a different scenario. You know, it gradually grows and grows and grows. And then before, you know, you know, but at some point you have. And that’s where I think having a neutral party outside can help kind of be a disruptor to some of that.

Betty Wang 00:35:31 Well, because I imagine or I’ve seen where loved ones have said, you must do everything to live for me. Right. And I’m sure that’s not uncommon, because they don’t want to lose a person they love. Yeah, but having a neutral party.

Betty Wang 00:35:49 Ask that question and pose that question. Yeah, sure can be super helpful.

Kim Burnett 00:35:55 And also, to have that person, you know, to have someone say, you know, I hear what you’re saying, but but she’s she’s decided that she’s, you know, she doesn’t want to do that anymore. She would rather be with you guys, you know. Yeah. With the time she has left. And that’s hard to hear. But I mean, in some ways, hearing it from an outsider can be very helpful, too.

Betty Wang 00:36:17 How do you. You know, these are. This is usually I ask at the end. But I mean, I think with everything we’ve talked about it. How do you maintain your own balance and peace? Because this is a lot. Because I would imagine you don’t just take one client a year. Yeah. Yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:36:35 No, I mean.

Betty Wang 00:36:36 Always you are surrounded by it. Yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:36:39 I mean, and I, I mean, I will say that I don’t have a huge client load because I really, again, want to be there, you know, in a deep way for my clients.

Kim Burnett 00:36:49 But I have rituals. You know, I have kind of boundary rituals that are like, I have music in my car on the way to a client, and then a different kind of music on the way back as a way to get out, you know. I, I do think it, you know, going back to your very first question, like, you know, of of my experience with my friend and my mom, I had an emotional an emotional connection there that I don’t I just, I, you know, I have a professional connection with my clients. It’s so that helps. That kind of creates a little bit of a, you know, a of a force field around me where I can be empathetic, but it’s not it’s not my journey. It’s their journey. So again, I think it’s about kind of being clear about boundaries. But music helps for me.

Betty Wang 00:37:40 And would you consider that a hobby or interest outside of work? I always ask my guests from a retirement perspective. I mean, well, you sounds like you retired and you found another interest to sort of fill your time.

Betty Wang 00:37:54 But yeah, that people are happier if they have a passion or an interest that they can do once they leave the workforce. It sounds like you found a different passion and entered the workforce in a different way. Yeah, yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:38:08 But it’s but I mean, I think, you know, I also my all my clients know that I don’t, I don’t do work on Tuesday because that on Tuesdays because that’s the day I do pottery.

Betty Wang 00:38:17 So it’s amazing.

Kim Burnett 00:38:20 You know. So I have, I have I definitely have things like that, you know, I mean, I, you know, I try to I try to exercise every day. I try to, you know, but yeah, I mean, I think, I think that’s the cool thing about, you know, kind of being quote unquote retired. But having a second career is it’s completely different than everything I ever did before. But it’s still fulfilling. But it’s still it’s not all consuming, right? I mean, it doesn’t it feeds me.

Kim Burnett 00:38:48 I mean, it really does. I mean, I really, really believe that we need, you know, one of the best things about being a death doula is when people ask me, oh, and what do you do for a living? And I say, I’m a death doula. And they’re like, oh, and we have like an hour long conversation about death.

Betty Wang 00:39:07 You know, like, wait, you’re not wearing all black? And there’s not. But I mean, but everybody wants to.

Kim Burnett 00:39:13 Talk about death. Like, I feel like that’s like the thing I don’t get paid for is to have Of conversations with random people in my life about death because they hear what I do and they’re like, Oh God, I wish I knew about you when my mom died, and da da da da da da da. And because people need to process it. And that’s that’s the thing in our culture we just don’t do, you know.

Betty Wang 00:39:37 Well, it’s so true. I mean, you’re part of the reasons why I decided to start a podcast, because people I feel like there’s so many folks like you who none of us know about, actually.

Betty Wang 00:39:49 And if we had known about you earlier, it might have, you know, had been a resource and that could have helped us through a tough time. But yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:39:59 Yeah, yeah.

Betty Wang 00:40:00 Well, tell us, you know, you’ve kind of talked about your different services and it sounds like they can kind of piece what makes sense for them and their family. What’s the best way for women to contact you if they’re interested or anyone to contact you if they’re interested in your services?

Kim Burnett 00:40:18 Well, I think probably just going to my website. So it’s good death matters.com. And on that site you could schedule a free 30 minute consultation with me. There’s a calendar right there that you can go in and see when I have availability and just talk about what you need. I’m also on, you know, social media and Instagram and I have a newsletter that comes out. So but yeah, that’s the best that’s the best way. And all my contacts that information is there to get in touch.

Betty Wang 00:40:46 So okay. And I’ll put that in the show notes.

Betty Wang 00:40:49 And then for those folks who aren’t in Colorado, how can they find somebody like you? Yeah. In their area. Yeah.

Kim Burnett 00:40:59 So there’s there’s the international end of Life doula association, and then there’s the national End of Life Doula Association. Okay. I would say probably go there. And if it’s somebody that is just looking for help, kind of with kind of a state closeout, there’s the professionals of afterlife of after loss services is another good network and they really focus on kind of end of, you know, after someone’s past helping supporting people.

Betty Wang 00:41:29 And what kind of accreditations do they have to have to be a part of, let’s just say the the national doula.

Kim Burnett 00:41:35 Yeah. So there this is a field. I mean, you know, I would look to see that someone’s been trained and kind of have worked in hospice and all of that. But there’s no and I think this will change. There’s no formal accreditation that has to happen. The international End of Life Doula Association does offer an accreditation.

Kim Burnett 00:41:56 And so that may be a way to look for that. But I think it’s more, you know, reading, reading through the doulas and kind of understanding what their emphasis is, whether it’s more kind of on a spiritual journey or if it’s a more pragmatic, you know, kind of this practical doula that I do that just seems like a good fit. And then interviewing and asking for resources, References. I would say a good doula will have surviving family members that will be able to willing to talk to them about them. Okay.

Betty Wang 00:42:24 That’s good. I mean, I think that the fear is that you’re letting somebody into something very personal, very may have to do with their finances. Yeah. And is there any, you know? Yeah. I mean, check is there, you know.

Kim Burnett 00:42:40 Yeah. I mean, I think you would want to make sure that they had insurance. You want to make sure that they’ve been whatever had a background checked on, you know. That’s another piece. But yeah I mean I think that is, you know, that’s a real thing.

Kim Burnett 00:42:52 I mean, and there’s just there’s no we’re not bonded. We’re not, you know. So.

Betty Wang 00:42:58 Well, hopefully they’ll just come to you in Colorado then. It sounds like. Yeah. A diamond in the rough. well, thank you so much for your time. I thought it was. I really appreciate all the tips and. Yeah, really enlightening and really fascinating, and I think a lot of people are going to learn a lot from you.

Kim Burnett 00:43:20 Great. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And I really enjoyed talking with you today.

Betty Wang 00:43:24 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Betty Smart Friends. I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation and that you learned something new. You can connect with us on social media to stay updated on future episodes. Share your thoughts and join our community of smart friends. You can find us on Instagram at Betty Financial, and don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode! If you are feeling ready to be more empowered and less alone in your financial life, please schedule a complimentary 15 minutes with me.

Betty Wang 00:43:59 The link is in the show notes. Please see the show notes for important disclosures regarding BW financial planning and this episode. Until next time, remember you are not alone. We got you.