EPISODE OVERVIEW:

What happens when the traditional estate plan isn’t enough? Join Betty for an eye-opening conversation with elder law attorney Susie Germany to discuss the vital differences between elder law and traditional estate planning. Learn about the critical gaps most families don’t know exist in their planning. Susie reveals why elder law goes far beyond wills and trusts, including the red flags of financial exploitation that hide in plain sight, Medicaid strategies that can protect a lifetime of savings, and why choosing the wrong person for power of attorney might be the most expensive mistake your family makes.

TIME STAMPS:

[1:54] What is Elder Law

• Definition of elder law
• Disability planning

[8:22] Proactive Planning

• Choosing the right people
• Looking for professional guidance

[21:18] Having Family Conversations

• When to start planning
• Selecting trustees

[26:08] Financial Exploitation 

• Looking for the signs
• Steps when abuse is suspected

[50:46] Understanding Medicaid

• Overview of Medicaid
• Importance of legal support

KEY TAKEAWAYS: 

• Why elder law isn’t just estate planning with a different name – Learn what elder law is and what makes it different from other forms of law
• How to avoid the common mistakes– Discover the common issues families face when elder care planning and how to avoid them
• Navigating family dynamics – Figure out who to choose for certain roles so elder loved ones are not taken advantage of
• The conversation no one wants to have (but everyone needs to) – ensure you have conversations with family early so you can be proactive in your planning
• Understand Medicaid – Learn to navigate the complexities of Medicaid and how to guide your family through the process

GUEST INFO: 

Susie Germany, Elder law attorney

• Website
• LinkedIn
• Facebook

RESOURCES: 

• Join Betty in a free consultation call for your financial goals
• Subscribe to the Betty’s Smart Friends YouTube Channel
• Follow us on Instagram
• Visit my website for more info
• Follow us on LinkedIn

Betty Wang is an investment adviser representative of BW Financial LLC, a registered investment adviser registered in the State of Colorado. Registration does not imply a certain level of skill or training. The views and opinions expressed are as of the date of publication and are subject to change. The content is for informational or educational purposes only, and is not intended as individualized investment advice. This information should not be relied upon as the sole factor in an investment-making decision. You are encouraged to consult with a financial professional to address your specific needs and circumstances.

TRANSCRIPTION: 

Betty Wang 00:00:03 What if one conversation today could protect both your family’s financial future and ensure your aging loved one receives the quality care they deserve? Since research shows women handle 75% of caregiving responsibilities and families, this episode addresses challenges many of us are facing right now or will face soon. I’m Betty Wang, host of Betty Smart Friends. I’m a certified financial planner who helps women be more empowered and feel less alone in their financial lives. I’m thrilled today to welcome Suzy Germany to the podcast. Susie is an elder law attorney with extensive experience helping families navigate the complexities of aging. As a fellow of the American College of Trusts and Estate Council and a member of the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys. Susie brings both expertise and compassion to the overwhelming decisions we face when our loved one. Ages. Susie’s guided countless families through Medicaid planning, long term care decisions, and asset protection strategies while serving as former co-chair of the Colorado Bar’s Elder Law Section. Susie has a talent for making sense of confusing regulations and turning them into clear action plans that gives families confidence during difficult times and my personal interactions with Susie.

Betty Wang 00:01:26 I found her to be wicked smart and very, very genuine. So my smart friends get ready for elder law insights that every person should know. Oh, cut! So my smart friends, get ready for essential elder law insights that every family should know. Please welcome Susie to the podcast. Hi, Susie. Thanks for joining us today.

Susie Germany 00:01:52 Thank you for having me.

Betty Wang 00:01:54 Sure. Today, I wanted to talk about the specific topic because I heard you speak at one of my continuing ed study groups, and I found what you do really fascinating. And also you had such a breadth of knowledge. Could you tell us a little bit about how does Elder Law different? How is Elder Lot different than estate planning?

Susie Germany 00:02:22 Yeah. So estate planning really means when obviously someone is doing their will, their trust, maybe doing power of attorney documents and they’re putting things in place in the event of their death. Elder law is a little bit broader than that. In that elder law attorneys may do estate planning as one portion of their practice, but we also do a lot of work around incapacity and and planning for incapacity, in that it means that we are looking really at the full picture of what’s going on with that individual and planning in the event they get sick in the future and making sure they have the right documents, planning documents in place or on the other side of things.

Susie Germany 00:03:08 Unfortunately, we often get involved after someone has already had a health event and, you know, perhaps their family member has come to us because they need to seek authority to be able to help make decisions for their their family member who’s not able to make those decisions for themselves. So in that regard, elder law attorneys may deal with going to court and getting guardianship and conservatorships in place. They may also deal specifically with special needs planning. So that means doing specific types of planning to enable whoever the recipient of assets are in the future or currently to be able to receive public benefits if necessary. So elder law attorneys really focus on disability planning as much as they do. Death planning. That’s probably the best way to describe it. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:04:04 When? so when should you seek out an elder law attorney versus a general estate attorney? When should you just hop straight to you?

Susie Germany 00:04:16 I would say whenever someone is doing planning for a loved one that might be experiencing some level of disability, or is in a situation where they may need added assistance or even public assistance in the future.

Susie Germany 00:04:35 So I think that’s a you know, that’s probably a really clear area where it’s time to talk to an elder law attorney. I think the other thing that’s important is that elder law doesn’t really just pertain to people who were seniors or older people. It also overlaps to. Younger people who might be experiencing some level of disability, who might need public benefits. But elder law really encompasses that. Public benefits planning in addition to estate planning.

Betty Wang 00:05:12 And I kind of jumped over it. But what drew you specifically to elder Law? So is it a specialty that you, you know, additional additional schooling that you get after you receive your law degree? was there something personal that shaped this path for you?

Susie Germany 00:05:31 For me personally, I had a close friend growing up whose sibling, had a disability, and I, you know, remained friends with that family throughout my life. And I saw that there were a lot of very unique needs that her sibling needed. And when I became an attorney and started working in the areas and I was doing a little bit of estate planning, I started realizing there was such a huge need for folks specifically with special needs planning, and really made me dive into learning more about Elder Law as a whole.

Susie Germany 00:06:11 So that really was the impetus for me becoming an elder law attorney, because I had that personal connection and I saw such a huge need.

Betty Wang 00:06:22 What are some of the biggest mistakes that you see families make? Obviously, you know, they’re coming in blind. They don’t really know what they’re looking for. I think I would have been confused to think that if I had a family member, a younger family member who needed special planning, I would already think that elder law would mean would exclude me, right? Or would Exclude the services that I would need?

Susie Germany 00:06:49 Yes. And that is. That’s unfortunate. And I think we might need to rebrand Elder Law. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:06:57 That’s bad.

Susie Germany 00:06:58 Yeah. Just to make it clearer to the public. I absolutely think, you know, I see common mistakes people make. I think the first one is failure to plan. It’s very easy to procrastinate, and waiting too long to plan can make things so much more complicated and stressful and expensive. So I would say procrastination is probably the number one thing.

Susie Germany 00:07:25 The second thing is trying to take shortcuts and do it yourself remedies like, I don’t know, dating a portion of your ownership of your house to your child. For example, thinking I don’t need a will. I’ve taken care of that already. same thing goes for adding people on to your bank accounts. And I would also say, especially in the special needs planning arena. The common mistake I see is parents may say, well, I don’t really want to pay to go get planning done, so I’m just going to give everything to Sally because Johnny has a disability and I’ve just got this agreement with Sally that Sally is going to take care of Johnny, and rarely does that really happen. And it creates all sorts of unintended consequences.

Betty Wang 00:08:22 I mean, what’s the one thing that you wish everybody knew about this? You know, disability care planning, is that fair to call it? because it is. I mean, the procrastination piece, the do it yourself thing. Is it just to basically find somebody like you to help walk them through it.

Susie Germany 00:08:48 I think the one thing I wish everybody knew is that prevention is absolutely worth £10 of cure, in that if you can be proactive and you can work with qualified professionals who know what they’re doing, and also name the right people to serve in various roles, such as trustee for a special needs trust or the right person to be the medical power of attorney, or the right person to be the personal representative for an estate. Those are such key roles that are so important, and they have so much responsibility and liability that go with them, that I think if people really knew what those jobs were and how important they are, and they made the decision to put professionals in those roles versus put their family members in that position. I think it could save people a lot of grief and a lot of litigation.

Betty Wang 00:09:50 Can you share some examples of what you’ve seen or, or maybe a, you know, mosaic of, of issues you’ve seen?

Susie Germany 00:10:01 Yeah, probably one of the most tragic cases that I was ever involved in involved a young woman who was a single mom, and she had a very successful business, and she thought she had done adequate planning when she did her estate plan.

Susie Germany 00:10:21 And she she had gone to an attorney and she had just been diagnosed with a terminal illness. And when she did the planning, she thought it would be a good idea to name one of her friends who was also her employee, to be the guardian of her minor child, and she named a different friend to be her financial power of attorney and trustee of her trust and the trust she was creating for her son. And what ensued was a horrific battle, because her employee slash friend did not really have a relationship or know the trustee, and she didn’t. Neither really understood what their roles were supposed to be, and it created a horrific situation that involved a lot of stress and a lot of anxiety, and it involved issues. And between, you know, that limited contact between this child and extended family after this child had lost their mother. And it also created, obviously a lot of expense and litigation that could have been avoided. And so that case is an example of why it matters who you choose in various roles, and why and how.

Susie Germany 00:11:45 It’s often a good idea to make sure that you’re deeply considering those roles before you just name people. So that’s that’s probably one one example that always comes to mind. That case is lived with me a long time. I’ve always been concerned about that case.

Betty Wang 00:12:04 Well it’s true. I mean, most people think, oh, well, my brother, my some sort of family member would help. And, you know, many of my clients are single by choice or by circumstance. And they they have best friends that they think they would know my wishes. But what you’re saying is that folks don’t really understand, first of all, the big responsibility it is of the of being a trustee or a power of attorney. and maybe all the work that goes into it, because it’s not as easy as making a couple of decisions. It’s a lot of paperwork. Is that correct in saying that.

Susie Germany 00:12:48 It is documentation? You know, I when I talk to clients about the job responsibilities for each of these roles, I always tell them, think of it as a job description.

Susie Germany 00:13:00 You want to make sure the person you’re choosing matches the job description and has the skill set, but also has the willingness and the time available to devote to this role to do it right, and the willingness to bring in the necessary professionals to make sure things are taken care of.

Betty Wang 00:13:22 Do you find that in this situation with this client who, went to a state attorney, do you find that they don’t quite ask the right questions. Do you feel like that was a situation where you should? They should have been referred to somebody with elder law experience. I would assume that a lot of us state attorneys think they can handle it all. If is that. Am I misreading that, or should people kind of contact an elder law attorney as well and and figure out who they need? I guess my question is, can we expect that an estate planning attorney would say, you know, this sounds a little more complicated. Let me refer you to an elder law specialist because we as laypeople, really rely on on attorneys to tell us, you know, what we need to be doing or if they’re not able to, to help our situation appropriately.

Susie Germany 00:14:27 I think in answer to your question, I think the real disconnect is often between estate planning attorneys who don’t ever do any litigation and they don’t know, and they have never really administered one of the plans they’ve created. And I think that that is often more of the disconnect or the issue, because they don’t necessarily know what the likely outcomes are going to be with that administration, unless they’ve had a lot of experience and they’ve had to deal with their plans that may have been challenged at some point or or have had to be involved in the administration side, because that is where, you know, the rubber really meets the road in terms of how good your plan is. It’s what how is it, how does it work when it actually has to be carried out? And I think sometimes that’s just a function of having the right experience. And in my example, having an elder law attorney versus an estate planning attorney may not have really mattered per se. It’s more, I think, in the experience side to get in front of potential conflicts.

Betty Wang 00:15:51 So could you explain to, I think, the layperson, we would assume that whoever’s writing an estate plan would also defend the estate plan. if, you know, if you were to die, right. and you’re saying that that’s not the case, people should know that some. You should ask that question, do you? Is that common that people don’t litigate the estate plans that they create, that they draft?

Susie Germany 00:16:26 Well, it would depend, right? First of all, it would depend if that lawyer still even in practice. Right. If that person’s even still around, still available, or it still remembers that client, right? Remembers what occurred there. But what we often find, though, is that, you know, on the one hand, it’s not every estate plan that’s challenged. So necessarily, you know, not every lawyer out there has had to go defend their plan. But, you know, I had one of my mentors tell me when one time, actually about 20 years ago, that if you once you’ve practiced long enough, there will come a time where you have to defend one of your plans.

Susie Germany 00:17:08 And I think that’s important, though, in terms of a characteristic that clients want to look for in a lawyer is their experience level. And what have you seen? What have you seen go right, what have you seen go wrong? And I think that that those are important questions for clients or prospective clients to ask their attorney when they’re interviewing an estate planning attorney, you know, regardless of the content of the of the estate. I think it really is important, though, for planners to really know how to do the planning and, frankly, paper their file so that they can defend that plan down the line.

Betty Wang 00:17:56 What questions do you suggest people ask themselves, or ask the folks that they are naming as trustees, or they are naming as power of attorneys? is there something, you know? Are they capable? I mean, what are the things that they should be asking themselves? I mean, maybe.

Susie Germany 00:18:19 Yeah. So we often give a handout to our clients to provide to their loved ones that they’re thinking about naming and in various roles, just so they have a clear definition of what is this role really mean when I talk about it in practical terms with clients? And they’re asking me, well, who would be a good medical power of attorney? I always bring up, okay, who has availability to go to doctor’s appointments with you to oversee medication management, or who is going to know what your end of life decisions are and be willing to carry those out if necessary.

Susie Germany 00:18:57 And who’s also going to be willing to be transparent with other family members, and who’s going to be organized? And really, it is a care management role. With that. I also ask, is that family member able and willing, do you believe, to hire professionals, like a care manager to come in and assist them as necessary. I think all of those are good questions to ask around a medical power of attorney on the financial roles such as trustee, personal representative of a will or power of attorney. I always first ask the client, tell me about this individual you’re thinking about. Are they responsible with their own finances? What is their current financial picture look like? Do they pay their bills on time? Are they organized? Do they have lawsuits or judgments against them? Have they had multiple divorces where they have a lot of financial obligations, and what is their time of availability? Can they do a spreadsheet? Would they be able to file documents with the court as necessary, in order to make sure that all the assets are accounted for? are they going to keep receipts? I mean, it seems really simplistic to talk about it in those ways, but those are all the logistics that go into those roles, and I don’t think a lot of people know how much work it is to be in that role.

Susie Germany 00:20:33 The other topic that comes up a lot with that is what is the family dynamic? Because if you’re naming one son as financial power of attorney and a daughter as medical power of attorney, and they don’t get along very well and they’re not going to share information, then you’re setting this whole situation up for failure. So those are a lot of the questions that I recommend asking. And then if clients come back and say, you know, we’ve really rethought this, we don’t think it’s a good idea for our children to be in these roles. Then we recommend professionals to them, and we ask them to go interview professionals to consider for those.

Betty Wang 00:21:18 One should families start these conversations? Are there warning signs that you who. You know, we we should do this? you know, I think sometimes when your parents are aging, you’re not sure when when that slope, you know, gets real steep.

Susie Germany 00:21:40 Yes, yes. I think that there’s a lot of empowerment in being proactive. And what I always recommend to families about having this conversation.

Susie Germany 00:21:53 The best time to have these conversations is when your parents are healthy and when things are going great, and you can have a conversation with them that’s like, look, do us a favor as your kids give us the tools and the plan so that we know what to do if there’s an emergency, just like, you know, as the child if I, you know, had had an emergency. My parents going to want to know what’s my plan? Who do they call? What do they do? And I think that it’s really important if families can have these conversations of like, look, give the best gift to us and please give us the plan. Tell us what we’re supposed to do or not do. Who’s in charge? Where are things going to be stored? And just just let us know. Because I think oftentimes parents feel guilty if they’re not naming their children. And often children are feeling relieved because it’s like, oh my gosh, thank goodness I don’t have to raise my kids, do care for my parents and be the decision maker on everything because that’s a lot.

Susie Germany 00:23:02 So I think that just being open early is a good idea. Being proactive before something happens, it’s always and I can say this with confidence. It is always going to be less stressful and it is always going to be less expensive. If you’re doing this planning proactively before something happens versus waiting for an emergency, because it may be too late to do estate planning, and you might be in the courtroom realm dealing with guardianship and conservatorship, which is much more stressful and expensive and involved.

Betty Wang 00:23:42 I mean, we’re kind of diving into these complex financial dynamics. I mean, there’s so many different iterations of what family means now, I assume that makes your life very, very complicated. What you know, what happens when an aging parent has a disabled adult child? How does that change planning? When should they start planning?

Susie Germany 00:24:07 I always recommend families start planning as early as possible. So even if you’ve got it younger parents with a child with disabilities, it is so important to do that planning and to get even just a baseline framework in place that can be built on as that child ages.

Susie Germany 00:24:28 For older parents, I have done trainings in the past with attorneys that represent social services, adult protective services, and this was probably ten years ago and it was already reaching a crisis stage. Then at that time where Adult Protective Services was seeing the first wave and the surge of parents that were dying or becoming incapacitated themselves, who had children with disabilities, for whom there was no plan, and now child or adult Protective services, was having to respond both for the parents needs as well as their adult child’s needs. And those cases, unfortunately, continue to be fairly common. And so having these conversations is so important. One of the greatest fears any parent has is they’re going to pass away or become incapacitated and not be able to care for their child. And it doesn’t matter what age their child is if that child is dependent on them. And so I always tell families the sense of empowerment and relief that you have when at least you know you’ve got something in place. It may not be perfect, but it’s a first step.

Susie Germany 00:25:48 And I also tell families, you don’t have to solve all of the world’s problems today. We start with what we know today, and you’re going to update this and build on it about every five years, or if there’s big life events. So you don’t have to have all the answers today.

Betty Wang 00:26:08 Well. And, you know, disabled adults and aging adults are, you know, ripe for financial exploitation. I mean, how how have you seen it affect families? How can families protect their loved ones? What are warning signs of this? I mean, not all the abuse, right? we hear a lot about the scams, but there’s also physical abuse. There’s lots of different abuse out there.

Susie Germany 00:26:40 There is. And very sadly, we are seeing we’ve been talking in our office even just recently, that we’ve seen more undue influence and exploitation cases recently, as in in the past year than we’ve seen since probably 2010. And the commonalities have been the economy and the rising unemployment, Cohousing, the cost of housing.

Susie Germany 00:27:06 All of these factors seem to be to be adding and building into this situation where we are seeing increased elder abuse, elder exploitation, financial exploitation, and we’re seeing it with folks that live in the disability community as well. So we are definitely seeing an uptick in that. The primary red flags that I would list out would be the common situation that we see oftentimes. And if it’s a child, adult child, often that child is estranged from their siblings. They themselves may have a lot of needs and they have a somewhat co-dependent relationship with that parent. Oftentimes, it might be only one parent because the other parent has passed away or has not been in the picture. And it really goes to. You know, I hate to say this, but all the things they look at in criminal law, right? What is someone’s motive? What’s their opportunity to to do that? What intent do they have and what act did they take to commit that that act. Oftentimes we see everything from emotional manipulation. and it could be you’re not, you know, to parents, you’re not going to see my grandchildren, you’re not going to see your grandchildren anymore.

Susie Germany 00:28:33 And I can’t work because I have A, B and C going on, and I really need financial help. And I know you’re on Social Security, but maybe you could put me on your house. And that way I can live in your house, and I always have a place to live. it could also be, you know, my siblings have always been mean to me. They don’t understand me like you do. And, you know, I just need you to help me with my bills. It can be any number of these situations, but they usually involve isolation. They usually involve some level of manipulation. They can also involve threats and intimidation. We see that a lot. And emotional blackmail. And it can also involve, like you said, physical violence as well, where maybe that that individual is afraid for their safety if they don’t do what the exploiter wants them to do. And oftentimes the victim feels very alone and they’re embarrassed, they don’t want to tell anyone what’s going on. They want to cover it up.

Susie Germany 00:29:43 They’ll often try to hide it, especially if it’s they’ve been giving a lot of money to one child, and they don’t want the other children to know. And oftentimes it’s it may be discovered inadvertently. You know, I’ve had cases where one of the siblings comes in and says, oh my gosh, we’ve got to do something. My cousin Bill has been helping himself to my mom’s money, and here are ten checks my mom has written to Bill. And how do we stop this? Because he keeps saying that he needs help and she’s the only one that will help him, so she feels obligated. So it can really range all different kinds of situations. But one common thing too, we find, is seniors who are not socially connected to their family or connected to their community and don’t have a good support system. They’re very ripe for this type of exploitation, either by friends, family members, caregivers. We see a lot of caregiver cases as well, where the family especially is somewhat estranged. The caregivers see an opportunity and they enter into the pseudo child role with the person they’re caring for, and it gives them the opportunity to exploit them as well.

Betty Wang 00:31:08 Well that’s scary. And what? Let’s say, a child comes across something. They suspect that their, their mom or dad have been financially exploited. Who do they even contact? you know, I’m sure their first reaction is to confront, confront the person. But are there better ways to go about it? Should you contact law enforcement first? Do you talk to your parent first or what? What’s your recommendation from what you’ve seen?

Susie Germany 00:31:45 Well it depends. Each case is a little bit different. I would say the first thing depending on what they’ve discovered. Okay. If they’ve if they’ve discovered something that is clearly a crime. They should, of course report that to the police and depending on their parent’s age, if their parent is over the age of 70, I would probably also report it to Adult Protective Services. And they should also make an appointment with a probate elder law attorney. probate. Just for clarification, a lot of people think probate just means when someone dies, but the probate court in Colorado is the court that hears cases that involve people who might need protection.

Susie Germany 00:32:31 And oftentimes in those types of cases where there has been exploitation, like we’ve discussed, there might be the need for a guardianship, which is a court process where someone can make decisions about another person who’s found to be incapacitated by the court, or the need for a conservator, which is someone who would be appointed to manage the assets and finances for that person. If the court finds that that person is not able to adequately manage them themselves, and it might be due to undue influence, it might be due to this exploitation that’s occurring. And sometimes these cases are very difficult because there’s clearly some level of undue influence being exerted on this person, but in undue influence can be difficult to prove. So usually you’re trying to collect as much evidence as possible. a good example. My first big exploitation case that I had was back in 2010, and I’m still friends with the clients I represented in that case. And I remember the day they called me because they called me and they said, I have concerns because my nephew has been paying the bills for our parents because he lives nearby.

Susie Germany 00:34:00 We’ve always trusted him, but I was at their house the other day and there was a check stub in their checkbook, and there was a check for $10,000 made out to my nephew. And I haven’t confronted the nephew yet, but this seems very suspicious to me. And he was also telling us that we really needed to watch their budget because they were going to get their hair cut too often and they were using too much gas in their car. And meanwhile our nephew had just sold their house and they had moved to a less expensive home. So these were all big red flags. And so the first step is collection of evidence, right? Getting copies of those checks. Getting copies of financial statements, bank statements, any red flag that’s out there. That is the evidence that is needed by the attorney to be able to go to the court to seek assistance, but also that’s the same evidence the police are going to need to pursue it criminally.

Betty Wang 00:35:13 Wow. and then what do you do with the family members? How do you.

Betty Wang 00:35:22 Is there a way to to monitor these things that you found that’s been, like a good system? Because it is hard to find somebody who has the right time and has, to do all these things for somebody. I guess how do you put the checks and balances in everything other than going through your parent’s bank statements, which they might find, invasive?

Susie Germany 00:35:55 That’s a great question. So when people come in and let’s say they have been named as mom and dad’s financial power of attorney and trustee, the first thing we do as attorneys is, is advise that individual what their responsibilities really are under Colorado law, and we talk to them about the need for transparency. Transparency is so important and that protects everyone in my opinion. So let’s say the son is the named trustee and he’s the named, you know, financial power of attorney. And he has two siblings, whether they get along or they don’t get along. If they do get along, everybody’s getting along okay. But we want to make sure that we’re just making sure everything’s done appropriately.

Susie Germany 00:36:46 The first thing we’re going to make sure is that that that power of attorney and trustee sends an inventory of assets to the siblings and of course, to mom and dad, and also an accounting showing what money has come in, what money has been spent, and supporting documentation, bank statements. it’s really easy to get things like bank statements on an automatic, even electronic format where bank statements could be shared with more than one person as they come out from the bank every month, or they’re shared on the third or whatever system is set in place. So that way everyone has the same information. No one’s having to guess, no one’s wondering, and if they see something on a bank statement that they have a question about, then they have, you know, they can pick up the phone and call, or they can do an email inquiry. And at the same time, that person is the trustee. And financial power of attorney should be keeping supporting documentation. So it should be very easy for them to send the receipts for what those, those questioned expenses are for.

Susie Germany 00:38:00 But it’s a lot of work. And that’s why that’s one of the reasons why we always caution people about naming family because they’ve got their own lives. They may have their own children, they’ve got jobs, they’ve got a whole life going on. And this is a really, really busy part time to three quarter time job. Again.

Betty Wang 00:38:22 You had mentioned it a little earlier and I, it’s something that comes up with some of my older clients, whether or not they should add their children, their adult children, to their checking accounts. And my understanding is that we don’t want them to be joint holders. We want them to be authorized signatories with possibly a transfer on death. And I know you can’t give legal advice, but it’s, you know, the AARP. My client added her son as a joint holder based off of a recommendation from the AARP, which, yeah, I just I’m curious what your thoughts are on that. I mean, it’s I know that it’s it makes things much more convenient and accessible, especially if somebody is is incapacitated.

Betty Wang 00:39:19 But what are your thoughts?

Susie Germany 00:39:21 So remember, in the beginning we talked about things that I wish people knew that these shortcuts that they might think are bypassing estate planning, how it’s going to help these these are just nightmares in the making. So one of the most common conflicts that comes up is if, let’s say, mom adds one child onto her bank account as a co-owner, which we see that happen a lot. What they may not realize is upon mom’s death, that account transfers automatically to that child, even though mom’s intent may have been for that account to be divided among all of her children. And boy, does that cause a lot of consternation. so that’s one example of a common problem. Another common problem. And we we see this as well. we see a lot of well-meaning folks that are inadvertently practicing law and unauthorized practice of law is a real thing, and it does have criminal and civil consequences. And that’s something that good advisors are well aware of. But unfortunately, there are advisors out there and other people who are making recommendations to people that can have really serious legal consequences.

Susie Germany 00:40:45 For example, recently we learned of an advisor who told their client that they should redo all of their beneficiary designations to avoid gifting anything to that client’s husband who who was suffering from dementia. And the advisor didn’t bother, even though the advisor knew there was an attorney involved, didn’t pick up the phone and didn’t call the attorney or tell the client, hey, we need to get the attorney in the in the picture here, because the attorney had structured special needs planning and had done it in a way that it complied with state law. But when the advisor took it upon themselves to say, take everything away from husband, that that adviser actually gave legal advice that violated state law because spouses have an automatic right to inherit at least a portion of an estate. And so it was a very problematic situation. So I think the best thing to do for anybody who’s the well-meaning adviser is to say, look, you need to get legal advice. I’m happy to work lockstep with you and do what the attorney is recommending, and we can execute on that plan.

Susie Germany 00:42:11 But let’s work together to make sure we’re all on the same page.

Betty Wang 00:42:17 And I did check with her attorney and she agreed. So just just yeah, it’s no, it’s something that, you know, that’s part of our duty as advisers. we know enough to be dangerous, but those are really places that. fed attorneys need to weigh in on. For for those reasons.

Susie Germany 00:42:38 Yeah, absolutely.

Betty Wang 00:42:40 That’s sort of scary. and what about, you know, we have a lot of blended families now. What do you see there? how. Yeah. Is that just a whole nother.

Susie Germany 00:42:56 Yes. blended family planning is so important. I can’t emphasize enough how important that is, because even when we have a blended family and one one spouse gets sick, even they haven’t passed away. But even there’s a change in health. It can really change the dynamic within the family. And even issues that seem somewhat latent tend to kind of come to the surface, and it can create all kinds of, of issues.

Susie Germany 00:43:32 So I think it’s so important if you are in a blended family to make sure that you’re getting good planning and your spouse is getting good planning because it protects everyone involved. I also am a big believer that when there’s blended families, it’s a great idea for there to be a neutral professional involved, especially on the financial side, to help navigate how everything is to be administered, because it levels the playing field and you don’t have this side going against that side. I would also say the same thing might be true for medical decision making too, for the same reason, because sometimes you can just see all sorts of dynamics happen where the medical power of attorney for mom might be at odds with the trustee, or might even be at odds with the medical power of attorney for dad. If they’re not, you know, of the same family group. So there’s all sorts of issues ripe in that arena as well.

Betty Wang 00:44:38 What about. I’ve seen where parents want two of their children as co trustees. What are your thoughts on that? you know, again, as a layperson, you just think yes to two heads are probably better than one.

Betty Wang 00:44:57 It’s fair that way. But it’s also. A place where conflict can definitely arise. Right. And maybe administrative headaches too. I don’t know. What are your thoughts on that?

Susie Germany 00:45:11 Yeah, absolutely. I think co anything can be very, very difficult, both for logistical reasons and just from the standpoint that they may have two different opinions about what should happen. And so it can stall any kind of decision making, and it can create a situation where the court may have to end up ruling on something. So we generally dissuade our clients from naming co trustees or co agents. Really co anything for that reason. What we usually again come back to is you may have one child that has strengths in the financial realm, and you may have another child that has strengths in the medical realm. And if the family dynamics work and everyone’s apprised ahead of time that this is what’s going to be involved, then that might be a good arrangement. Or again, you may want a neutral professional handling the financial piece, and you might want a primary decision maker on the medical.

Susie Germany 00:46:20 And then maybe another child that’s a secondary and in the trust capacity too. There are different ways to structure it where you might have a trustee, but you might also have someone who’s a trusted advisor who’s there to weigh in, maybe on certain decisions, but ultimately doesn’t have the same level of responsibility that the trustee does. But it helps the trustee from having to do all the heavy lifting themselves without creating a situation where there could be a conflict.

Betty Wang 00:46:56 So as a trusted advisor, a paid consultant, or are you thinking a trust or can a trust advisor also be another family member? They’re just they’re written into the document as saying they should be consulted and their opinion should be okay.

Susie Germany 00:47:17 That is correct. They would be written into the document and they would be their role would be very defined. What they would be doing, but it would be for very specific purposes. And for example, we utilize trust advisors a lot with special needs trusts, where we may want a professional trustee to be the in charge of managing the trust.

Susie Germany 00:47:42 But that professional might not know that beneficiary as personally as a family member would. So it might make sense in that situation for the trust advisor to be a family member who knows what, that beneficiaries, you know, what their life is and what needs they have, because they might be able to weigh in on some of those decisions. That helps the trustee and gives that trustee some insight.

Betty Wang 00:48:12 And then I’m going to jump to guardianship is just I’m curious because this is also where Friends, family. You see, it gets to that point where when does it become too dangerous for our parents to make decisions on their own, whether it be financial or medical, right? If you have a parent who refuses medical treatment or doesn’t want to follow doctor’s orders. Generally what would you say is sort of that line where. It may be pursuing a guardianship would be appropriate, right? Because that’s sort of the nuclear option in my mind. Right? Because nobody’s going to win there. Really.

Susie Germany 00:49:07 Right, right. So guardianship, as you just said, it is the nuclear option.

Susie Germany 00:49:13 Right. And typically when guardianship needs to be considered as if there are no powers of attorney in place, or there are powers of attorney and the named power of attorney. Can’t act, won’t act, or is doing something wrong. or the documents themselves are defective. They don’t have the proper language or authority in the document that is needed for someone to act as the power of attorney appropriately. The other piece is, if there has been a diagnosis right where it could be too late for that person to to do estate planning. And their behaviors are such as you alluded to, where it’s becoming dangerous. they’re not safe at home making decisions on their own. They’re driving, and maybe they turn the wrong way down a one way street and cause an accident. they have care needs that are very high, and they also might need placement where they’re not safe to live independently anymore. And that those are all signs that guardianship might need to be considered. And similarly, conservatorship in order to help manage their their assets if they don’t have anything like, you know, a trust in place, for example.

Betty Wang 00:50:46 And then we also touched early on about Medicaid planning and offline, we had talked about how you use it in conjunction with some of your special needs trusts. I know it’s a huge, huge subject, but can you just lightly talk about it? I mean, I think something that I work on with, with educating folks is that Medicare and Medicaid are different. and, you know, you hear people saying, well, long term care. I’m just going to go on Medicaid, but it’s not that easy. And it’s it has a lot of rules and regulations. And I could say this an attorney should always be involved with Medicaid planning. because I’ve had folks come to me for that. And I said, that is not that is something that’s very legal and it’s very regulated. So is that where they should always look to an elder law specialist versus a traditional estate planning attorney?

Susie Germany 00:51:50 Yes, I would say so. And as, as you know, the differences between Medicare and Medicaid. Right. Medicare is health insurance, and it is health insurance that kicks in when someone reaches retirement age and starts receiving Social Security retirement income, or if someone has been determined to be disabled according to Social Security and they receive Social Security disability.

Susie Germany 00:52:14 For at least two years, then they qualify for Medicare to be their health insurance. Medicaid is different and Medicaid can mean a lot of different things. But generally speaking, Medicaid pays for long term care for people who need 24/7 care in like a skilled nursing facility. It can also mean that Medicaid may pay for services if someone’s living at home and they’re on a home and community based waiver services program, where they’re getting certain levels of care for a limited number of hours per per week, for example. And there can also be Medicaid that simply pays for that. It’s a health insurance that pays for people who are lower income. So they may not even have a disability status, but they’re just lower income. Now that Medicaid, you know, is relatively new in our system and it may go away. We don’t we don’t know what that looks like. But in terms of Medicaid planning, you know, the broad brush rules is for someone who is receiving Medicaid, long term care or even home and community based services waiver, Medicaid.

Susie Germany 00:53:30 They have certain asset and income limitations. And so there are restrictions on what assets you can own and what assets, you can give away or transfer to someone else. And there are rules like a five year lookback period, which means if I’m applying for Medicaid long term care tomorrow, then Medicaid will look back over the prior five years to see if I have given any gifts or if I’ve added anyone onto my home, or I’ve added anyone on to my bank accounts, because all of those would be considered transfers without consideration and could penalize my ability to go on Medicaid. So that’s that’s a big one. The other piece that people need to know with Medicaid is that if they’ve been receiving Medicaid long term care and they pass away, their estate may be subject to a state recovery by the state of Colorado to pay the state back for any Medicaid services that person received during their lifetime. So there’s a lot of ins and outs and a lot of rules and regulations to know about Medicaid. And it’s really important for people to know that Medicaid is constantly changing.

Susie Germany 00:54:51 And under the bill that just passed the federal bill that just passed. We anticipate that there will be a lot of funding cuts and changes to our Medicaid programs.

Betty Wang 00:55:04 Yeah, that’s A big can of worms there. and I guess I would caution listeners, you don’t want to go through Medicaid planning without without an attorney. There’s so many rules. And as Susie said, they change all the time. And they’re they’re state dependent. So it’s you can’t count on a rule in Colorado to be the same as the rule in Texas. So it is really stated dependent. Is there anything else that we haven’t covered that you want to make sure that people know today, or to think about when they’re thinking about, you know, somebody that they love, that they need either aging or disabled, that they need to care for?

Susie Germany 00:55:53 I would say the main thing is cost is often the one big barrier to people doing the planning. And what I would say is It is true that. Yes. To have a proper estate plan prepared is going to have some cost associated with it.

Susie Germany 00:56:13 However, in comparison to not doing, planning or doing the wrong planning, it can save thousands and thousands of dollars and years of litigation if it’s done appropriately. And I think that’s the case. Whether you’re working with a family who might have a loved one with special needs and a disability, or whether you’re just working with a family that just needs to get things in place, even for young children or themselves. I think the failure to plan is one of the most expensive decisions people can make. Or trying to take shortcuts because those shortcuts rarely work out well.

Betty Wang 00:57:04 Yes. I always encourage people to have their estate plan in place. I tell them it’s it’s a kindness for their loved ones. Right? It truly is. and with all of this heavy work that you see, you see not always the, the best and the brightest and the the shiniest people in your line of work. How do you maintain your own balance and peace?

Susie Germany 00:57:35 Well, for one, I feel like even in my work, I feel that this is truly this area of law to me, is a calling as much as it is a profession.

Susie Germany 00:57:48 there are lots of different areas of law, and I worked in other areas of law before I found elder law and estate planning. And even though what we deal with is often tough and these are tough decisions and tough discussions, and you’re talking about end of life and all these things. the reward in this work is great because you truly can see life changing events happen in people’s lives, and you see the relief on their face once they’ve got things sorted out. and, and we love our clients. By and large, we have fantastic clients and I feel very grateful for that. When I’m not doing my law practice. I like to travel, and I like to get to the mountains or go to the ocean and just decompress and just, you know, just live life. And. But I do feel like our work that we do is very rewarding in a lot of ways.

Betty Wang 00:58:47 And then I’m always on the search for hobbies or new interests for for ideas for my clients or for for me when I eventually retire.

Betty Wang 00:58:58 Are there are things, interests or hobbies that when you have more time that you would like to to spend more time on, or do you? Do you find the time now to do it?

Susie Germany 00:59:09 You know, I really like spending time with my dog and hiking.

Betty Wang 00:59:14 What kind of dog?

Susie Germany 00:59:15 I have a malamute and she’s yeah, a lot. Big personality. and so I would like to get into just doing different things with my dog and travel and like I said, hiking and just doing outdoorsy, a lot of outdoor things, camping and things like that. I think that travel is just one of the best refreshers that we can have, and it just gets us in a different place in our mind. and I think that, you know, fortunately, we live in such a beautiful place. There’s so many great places to go visit.

Betty Wang 00:59:51 Yeah. Any favorite places?

Susie Germany 00:59:53 Oh, gosh. Estes. Hidden gems. Yeah, yeah. well, we have a place up in Estes Park. We go to a lot, and that’s probably my happy place.

Susie Germany 01:00:03 You know, it’s just there. And the beach. Those are. Those are my two happy places.

Betty Wang 01:00:08 Yeah, they sound lovely. How should people find you? What’s the best way to contact you or connect with you? If they’re looking for some advice or for an elder law attorney?

Susie Germany 01:00:22 Absolutely. I would say just call our office or reach out to us on our website. we have a pretty extensive intake process in that, you know, my assistant will be the first point of contact to really ask a lot of questions and find out how we can help. And we also ask for a lot of documentation to just as far as and that’s one thing too, I know is always weird giving people your financial information, but it really helps us when we can see what people’s assets are and how things are titled and information about their advisors. It’s really helpful for us because then we have people to partner with as we create a plan, and it makes our jobs so much easier. And we, you know, make sure that we put people in the appropriate plan.

Betty Wang 01:01:12 And for listeners who who aren’t in the state of Colorado, because I think you’re tell us where you’re registered. And for those who are not in either any of those states where how do they find somebody who specializes in elder law, has the appropriate experience that you’ve talked about? Is there a gold standard that they should look for?

Susie Germany 01:01:38 Absolutely. So two actually three things I would look for for really good estate planners. I would look at people who are fellows of the American College of Trusts and Estates Council or Aztec, and I believe the website for that is architect, I believe. and you can look on there to find attorneys who belong to tech. If you’re looking specifically for an elder law attorney, especially like if you’ve got issues with guardianship, conservatorship, things like that, then I would look at the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys, and it’s a national organization. And you can also go on their website, which I believe is Nala, and that’s Nala, I believe. Org. And you can also look for attorneys there.

Susie Germany 01:02:27 Another great way to look for attorneys is to ask around, right. Ask around other professionals, your financial advisors, your accountants, people who are in the health care industry. They may know of good elder law attorneys or estate planners because the, you know, word gets around right one way or the other to find the best people. Sometimes word of mouth, and also look for people who’ve been leadership in their local bar association in that specific area of law. So look to see if there is an elder law section of the Bar Association, who leadership there has been, or the trust and estate section of your bar association, because for those people that are active in the bar, typically they’re going to have a high level of knowledge and experience, and people are going to know their reputation because I think it’s always good to ask around, okay.

Betty Wang 01:03:26 That’s so helpful. Well, thank you so much for your time, Susie. I thought that was, as always, very educational and lightning and frightening all at the same time.

Betty Wang 01:03:39 but I really appreciate you spending time with us, and I wish you all the best.

Susie Germany 01:03:45 Thank you. I appreciate you having me.

Multiple Speakers 01:03:48 Thanks.