EPISODE OVERVIEW:

Senior compensation expert Tori Finucane joins Betty Wang for a data-driven examination of the gender wage gap. In this revealing conversation, they unpack how recent pay transparency laws are reshaping workplace dynamics and share battle-tested negotiation tactics that help women secure equitable compensation. From leveraging market data to navigating difficult conversations, Finucane offers actionable strategies for closing the pay gap.

Listen in.

TIME STAMPS:

[02:12] Nature of Compensation 

• How companies determine pay
• Secrecy around discussing salaries

[04:03] Preparing for Salary Discussions 

• Salary expectations for new jobs
• Conversations about pay during interviews

[15:37] The Role of AI in Hiring

• Using AI to screen candidates
• Networking with colleagues 

[29:34] Pay Transparency

• Understanding compensations structures
• How to be transparent about pay

[38:23] Compensation Packages 

• How to read a compensation package
• Compensation among different companies 

KEY TAKEAWAYS: 

• The gender pay gap: Latest data reveals how the gender wage gap compounds over careers, from entry-level positions to executive roles
• Strategies to assess compensation: It is critical to accurately valuing your skills against market benchmarks
• Effective negotiation techniques: Leverage research-backed techniques to articulate your value and secure competitive compensation
• Understanding compensation packages: You can maximize your total compensation through equity, benefits, and performance incentives
• Challenges of salary negotiations: understand proven strategies for overcoming common obstacles women face during salary discussions

GUEST INFO: 

Tori Finucane, Compensation Consultant 

• LinkedIn
• WorldAtWork.org
• Salary.com
• Glassdoor.com

RESOURCES:

• Join Betty in a free consultation call for your financial goals
• Subscribe to the Betty’s Smart Friends YouTube Channel
• Follow us on Instagram
• Visit my website for more info
• Follow us on LinkedIn

Betty Wang is an investment adviser representative of BW Financial LLC, a registered investment adviser registered in the State of Colorado. Registration does not imply a certain level of skill or training. The views and opinions expressed are as of the date of publication and are subject to change. The content is for informational or educational purposes only, and is not intended as individualized investment advice. This information should not be relied upon as the sole factor in an investment-making decision. You are encouraged to consult with a financial professional to address your specific needs and circumstances.

TRANSCRIPTION:

Betty Wang 00:00:05 Hello everyone! Welcome to this yet to be named podcast. I’m your host, Betty Wang. I’m a financial advisor who specializes in helping women with investing and planning for their retirement. Today, I want to talk about something that affects all working women and that is the gender pay gap. According to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, women earn on average, $0.82 for every dollar earned by men. Gross. So how can we, as women know if we’re being paid less than our male counterparts? How can we educate ourselves and advocate for ourselves in the working world? To talk about this, I’m so happy to introduce Tori Finucane. She’s a senior compensation consultant at a large retailer in the northeast. With over 20 years of experience in the big, wide world of compensation. One comment on her LinkedIn page says Tori’s knowledge of global compensation programs, job markets, bonuses and incentive programs is impressive. She has a contagious passion for her work and does a great job advocating for employees pay, ensuring that it is competitive.

Betty Wang 00:01:11 Also, Tori is one of my oldest and dearest friends from high school, so please welcome Tori and welcome to the show.

Tori Finucane 00:01:17 Thank you so much Betty. I’m so happy to be here. I really am so excited that you’re starting this journey with the podcast. I think that you have such great information to share with the wider audience. You’ve always given me the best advice, so I will always listen to what you have to say. But I truly am passionate about this topic and I apparently, oh, whoever posted that on my LinkedIn something. So truly nice words, but it is an area that I have been really passionate about because it does matter and it is important. And so I do feel that satisfaction from my work. And, you know, certainly when it comes to gender inequities. I think that there’s a lot of important things to talk about in that space. And honestly, in my career, I’ve found that, you know, compensation can be a little mysterious how two companies actually figure out what to pay their people.

Tori Finucane 00:02:12 Where does this come from, anyway? And there certainly is a long and storied history on pay and compensation and pay programs and how they develop. And we can get into into all of that. But suffice it to say, I think that a lot of people just don’t know.

Betty Wang 00:02:26 Yeah, it is sort of the.

Tori Finucane 00:02:27 Information.

Betty Wang 00:02:28 Put it behind a curtain and you show up at HR or with your manager and they sort of tell you, but you don’t know how the sausage is made, I guess.

Tori Finucane 00:02:38 No. And you know, what’s even worse is that, you know, we’re women of a certain age, employees of a certain age. You know, we remember a time when those were. That was a taboo topic.

Betty Wang 00:02:48 Oh, yeah.

Tori Finucane 00:02:49 You didn’t even ask what the job was paying you. Just you went to the interview and you showed your interest. And by asking about pay, you were showing that maybe you weren’t interested in that job, that wasn’t putting your best foot forward. And so there’s been a lot of legislation as of late that really forces employers hands to say, you need to tell people what you’re paying for this job.

Tori Finucane 00:03:11 Colorado in particular has some landmark legislation on that.

Betty Wang 00:03:15 Oh, that’s really great to know.

Tori Finucane 00:03:17 Yes, exactly. It’s really, like I said, a four star hand, you know. And they sort of, I guess you could say, speak from the employer’s point of view, that they warned us that, you know, hey, if you’re going to hire anyone in Colorado, you need to, like, make sure that you’ve got a pay range. You need to make sure that you tell them what what the job is paying before you offer them a position, ideally before you even talk about it. They were first in that space. And it’s a lot of states have followed suit and it’s great to see. So from an employees perspective, it’s great to see that people are being held accountable.

Betty Wang 00:03:52 Yeah. I mean, that brings me to the question I remember I mean, interviewing you are always supposed to be prepared. For what? If they ask you what your dollar amount, what your expected salary is.

Betty Wang 00:04:03 What should we do? I mean, I think I’ve read you. You’re supposed to give a range, but how do you come up with that range? Where do you find the resources to even know what’s out there?

Tori Finucane 00:04:14 Well, and that’s that’s a great question. It’s it is mysterious. And it’s not an exact science either. Of course, as nothing is. But it goes back to sort of fundamentally understanding that your skills and your knowledge is a commodity in the in the workplace, just like anything in the free market. And it has value. The things that you know and the things that you can bring to a position are valuable. And certainly the company wants to get that skill and experience for the least amount possible. And of course, you’re in a position where you’d like to sell that skills and experience for the most amount possible. And so how do you come to you know, that agreement and make something work. There’s been some research that says women in particular, you know, will just take what is on offer.

Tori Finucane 00:05:07 Right. We’re not going to push back. We’re not going to talk about. It’s it’s uncomfortable space for us 100%.

Betty Wang 00:05:12 Yeah.

Tori Finucane 00:05:13 We don’t you know, put we don’t assign a value to the things that we can bring to the table. A lot of times when, you know, certainly don’t feel like we’re in a position to advocate for ourselves when we are talking with an employer or future employer. So starting from that perspective, and when I coach people and especially young women, they say, no, you’re worth. Know what these skills and experience go for in the free market, and then you are in a better bargaining position. You know what jobs to look for. And you know when they come back to you with an offer that you’ve got a little bit of a knowledge base to go back to the negotiating table and really try to to up that. So how do you start what’s great about pay transparency legislation which is what they’re calling it now pay transparency. You know, as you can imagine, means being transparent about the pay that a company is offering for the job that you’re applying to.

Tori Finucane 00:06:09 And a lot of that makes them. And if it doesn’t, if they’re not in a state where it makes them, they maybe operate in a state where that’s the law. So that’s just a company policy now, is to always put the pay range on the job description, on the job posting. And I would have to say through my professional development that I’ve seen a lot of companies, while they were hesitant at first, they are embracing it now to just make that a policy that for all postings going forward. So I hope people are embracing it. I’m I’m seeing it and I hope I’m right and that so just starting right there. Google is your friend, right? You know, I’m a professional in this space and I pay a lot of money for for a lot of data where I can help my company make pay decisions. But you as an employee going into that space. I mean, Google is your friend and I still use it to. There’s jobs. People ask me to provide compensation on that I’ve never even heard of.

Tori Finucane 00:07:03 So I have to research myself. And you know, it’s not an exact science, but there is information out there. What does a software developer, you know, pay in at this certain level, with this level of experience and the factors that are going to and Google will tell you, but the factors that will change that level of pay. Geographic region is one of the most important. So I’m sure we all are familiar with the concept cost of living right. So you know, the East coast, West coast and then in the middle they’re going to have different costs of living. That does translate to some degree into a cost of labor there. Not hand in hand necessarily, but they do tie. So your geographic regions going to make the most difference. So if you Google, hey, what does a software developer make in San Francisco versus Miami, Florida, that you could get different numbers and that’s why.

Betty Wang 00:07:58 What about for virtual or hybrid? Or are you just seeing less and less of that.

Betty Wang 00:08:03 Do they do compensation analysts just take an average.

Tori Finucane 00:08:07 So that’s definitely been a big topic in this space. I would say most times. And whether this is the right way to do it or not. Time will tell, but it’s going to be where that company is located, where their headquarters are located, because that’s who’s deciding the pay. But if I just put out, I need a software developer and I don’t care where you’re working and I’m paying $100,000, that’s probably not going to elicit interest in certain areas of the country that have a higher cost of living. Because I’m going to have an applicant in California say, hey, that’s not pay that I can work for. So I don’t think it’s an exact science yet. We haven’t emerged with like a best practice in that space since. It’s such a new phenomenon. But I am seeing that the geographic differentials are lessening to some degree. And we’ll see how that that takes place, you know, over. It’ll perfect itself. I’m sure over the next few years, the other factor that’s going to be really important and most job postings will have this included, is the years of experience for the position, and certainly the minimum years of experience required to do that job is going to give you the best indication of of where that position is going to be leveled in the company’s pay range.

Tori Finucane 00:09:27 So something that asks for 1 to 3 years of experience, that’s more or less an entry level professional job, and that’s great. If that’s what you bring to the table, that’s going to be lower in their pay scale. And that can be indicated by certain words in the job title. You may see some jobs. This is true in the IT world. Software developer one, then two, then three. And the difference between those typically is years of experience. So the more you experience you have in your career, the more you can expect to be paid for that. And the more I as a company, I’m going to pay for that.

Betty Wang 00:10:03 So if we are looking at, you know, this podcast is for women over, let’s say 45. So they’re in their industry. They have the years experience when they’re looking at the range of salaries. I mean, I think most women would say, well, I’ll just I’ll just tell them the middle. Right. Because we’re humble. We don’t we don’t know what to do.

Betty Wang 00:10:29 Like what? What do you recommend there? Sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off from, you know, location and years of experience. But let’s say everyone has 15, 20 years of experience in their career or their industry. What are they looking for that.

Tori Finucane 00:10:45 So then that offers another challenge, because as you do further your career, you are going to have developed skills and experience and probably a specific function. So say you’ve spent your whole career in marketing roles and you know you’ve gotten to a certain level depending on what you’re looking for. Do you need to switch jobs? Are you looking to tap into a different industry? You’re going to have to identify for yourself what your transferable skills are going to be and understand that, you know, especially when you’ve built such a good portfolio for yourself that they’re going to be a lot more valuable in the marketplace. I will have to say that you might not have a full indication of what that job is going to pay just by looking at the job posting.

Tori Finucane 00:11:29 There’s a lot more factors at that level that go into your what we call a total compensation package. That’s not made up of just your base pay at that point typically at this level. And you know, when I say level, you are either at an expert level by this point. You’ve been 20 years in your career. You are a manager, a director, a VP. You run a function and just having a good sense of what all you bring to the table is a great starting point. Match that with your job posting and more often than not, that job is going to come through with an offer that’s going to be fair to you. And I say that because employers have a really good understanding of what people in your position make at different companies. Like I said, there’s a lot of data for us available out there. So I can say a vice president of marketing for this kind of industry and that also makes a difference is what kind of industry you’re looking at, because at different industries, pay differently, is going to have a base pay of X and a variable pay package or a total compensation package of Y.

Tori Finucane 00:12:34 And if companies are a good company, they’re going to be on top of it and be able to bring that to the table. But again, matching your skills with the available posting is more often than not going to allow you to have a similar level of earnings that you’re used to, that you’ve become accustomed to, because they do have a good sense of of what that position should be paying.

Betty Wang 00:12:55 Do most companies have a compensation? Analyst.

Tori Finucane 00:12:59 I would say so, certainly at a certain size. Yeah. Companies up to maybe about 500 employees might just have a few HR people that are more or less generalist in, in these functions, but one of them guaranteed is going to be knowledgeable in the compensation space and is responsible for setting pay rates for that company. So it is a typical practice, a typical function of HR.

Betty Wang 00:13:22 And so you’re in the tricky role of balancing wanting to make sure your people are paid. And also the company’s bottom line. Right. I mean that’s delicate.

Tori Finucane 00:13:34 Yeah it is.

Tori Finucane 00:13:34 It’s a it is a fine balance because I’ve got to kind of be that that go between and certain companies. I find that a lot easier to do. So certain companies that have leadership, that their people matter and they understand that labor is an investment in their company, that if we are paying at the right level, that we are going to get good, committed people to talent to join our company and work hard for us. So the best employers do that. Yeah. And, you know, it makes my job easier when they’re able to do that. What I do for them is to offer them perspective and say, hey, this is maybe an area where we should look at investing in our people. The pay rates have gone up and this function we are finding, and sometimes I even get these tips from our recruiting folks because they’ll say, you know what? Nobody’s biting at this pay rate or I’m not finding what I’m looking for because we have the we’ve posted the job at X rate. So if we want to get the talent that we’re looking for in the door, and someone that can really help us in this function and grow this function and help us be the best in class employer.

Tori Finucane 00:14:44 Then we’re really going to need to up it. And so I can go back to the drawing board and look and see what we can do to make that position more attractive. So we are constantly playing, you know, a balancing act, you know, very rarely I think companies will say, no, that’s not a good investment. Sometimes they just say we simply can’t do that. We’re just going to have to operate. We’re just going to have to do more with less. But if they’re in a position to grow their business, they understand that as an investment and, you know, will help make my job a little easier.

Betty Wang 00:15:11 Just I mean, with I we’re reading about people just doing their resume on I and that companies are just looking looking through the resumes with I. How have you seen that affecting things at these higher levels or is going back through? I mean, I remember when I mean, way back when when you we would go to recruiters and Torrey was a recruiter in her previous life.

Betty Wang 00:15:37 Like is that the best way to now get your foot in the door? Because there’s a people person to person relationship. Because it seems like from my understanding and what I’ve read, if you send your resume into a company, it’s eyes reviewing it.

Tori Finucane 00:15:54 So a lot of what they call applicant tracking systems that companies use will include some of these, what they’ll call bells and whistles to make your job easier. And that includes screening resumes. Even prior to I, it was questions that you might be asked as an applicant. And the answers to those questions would dictate whether or not you you got sent to a recruiters, actual eyeballs, an actual human person to review you. And now I is just sort of filling in that gap. If you say it’ll take a job description and it’ll take your resume and, you know, see if that’s a match I even get, I’m sure a lot of people do. If they use LinkedIn, it’ll say, hey, you’re an X percent match to this position. You know, that’s using the same kind of philosophy or approach.

Tori Finucane 00:16:42 Does that exclude someone from being reviewed? In my company, I would say no because we wouldn’t rely on such a, I’ll call it inhumane tool to look at our talent and review our talent. I know for a fact that every resume is reviewed, even if I says this is a better match or a less good match for for your role. So I wouldn’t be so scared of that space. In AI in general is helping people do their work a lot better. Even my experience with AI, my tools have AI to say, hey, you want to find compensation for this job? Here’s a good match, and here’s what this job might pay. Without me even looking at it. They’re very different in how it used to operate. It’s very scary, but I know I use my experience and knowledge to intervene in that and say, you know, whether or not I think they’re right. So I think it can be a useful tool, but I have not seen it yet take over from the the human aspect of that.

Tori Finucane 00:17:40 I think we still are able and capable of making human decisions. And if you if what you do is important to you, you’ll always have that that tie. And I would.

Betty Wang 00:17:50 Imagine with managers or, you know, expert level directors, that that’s even more so the case because there’s less applicants that there’s human eyes looking at it. Absolutely.

Tori Finucane 00:18:00 And when you’re talking about, yeah, higher level positions, you are talking about people who can really change the face of your company or that function. If you have a position opening at that level, it’s very critical to, to your whole operation. So you’re down a logistics director. I mean, you’re you’re struggling, right? You’re that’s a critical need to fill for your company. And the other thing I would say about that is that just applying typically unfortunately, isn’t always the best way that you you hear a lot about networking. We have a lot, especially since the recession. I feel like that’s become more important since, you know, 2008, I’m dating myself.

Tori Finucane 00:18:43 But it when jobs.

Betty Wang 00:18:46 God, you’re so old. You’re two days older than me. No.

Tori Finucane 00:18:54 My God.

Betty Wang 00:18:55 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Tori Finucane 00:18:58 Yeah. We just been at this game a lot. We’ve seen a lot of things, buddy, you and I. And it just really changed the the way I saw, you know, people getting hired, selected. You know what they were paid. It was very much an employers game because those jobs were so few and far between. You had to network. You had to really get out there and meet people and learn about the business. And I would say that that has not gone away. That’s still going to be your best way to put your foot forward. LinkedIn is a great tool. You can network with people just from, you know, the comfort of your own house. But finding those people that do what you want to do and other people that do that, that same thing, just to even offer advice, even if they don’t have a position open.

Tori Finucane 00:19:43 That’s always going to be a great way. And something I always talk about. And and when I’m career coaching folks, that’s always going to be really important. And it helps you. It helps you to find out what is about this role, what speaks to me about it. What are some of the things I should know about it that are going to help or hinder my me as a, as a candidate, as an applicant for this role? So I would never discount that I, I, you know, I, I because nothing’s going to take the place of that human interaction. I do truly still believe that.

Betty Wang 00:20:16 So it’s just because we’re old I don’t. Know. I think so too.

Tori Finucane 00:20:22 But it could be a generational thing. What could it really be? But if we’re speaking to like minded folks, I would say that. And I’ve seen companies, I actually do think that there’s, you know, a good, good, hard, fast data to prove our point. But yeah, you saw this complete shift to fully remote work right out of the pandemic, and then you saw companies slowly trying to bring people back in.

Tori Finucane 00:20:46 And I joined a new company that was fully remote at the time, and the experience was vastly different. And I almost felt sorry for some of the young women that were coming into my team, not having had the experience of having a job in an office, with colleagues, with the watercooler talk. Yeah. And somewhat, you might, you know, brush past or enter into a conversation with someone that you know, really can can help you in your career, offer great advice where you set up a zoom meeting, it doesn’t have the same effect, or you might not even have that opportunity because you were never in a zoom meeting with a person. That might be an important mentor to you. So companies started realizing that and that their company culture that But the younger workforce was craving that, and the company culture was really suffering from some of those policies now. Does it help us work better, faster? Some people. You know, I never want to go back into the office another day in my life.

Tori Finucane 00:21:43 Sure. And there’s there’s a way that we can balance all of that. So that hybrid approach that most companies are taking has been really the best solution, I think, with all of this, because they really, truly are finding that people do their best work when they do it together.

Betty Wang 00:21:58 Yeah. I mean, I would agree with that. I think some of the best advice I received was running into someone in the ladies room. Right.

Tori Finucane 00:22:05 Just right. Right. And if somebody was in my ladies room and off my kitchen, I’d be a little scared. You know, it’s just not going to happen in certain environments, right?

Betty Wang 00:22:14 Yeah. No it is it is different. Yes, it is definitely different. Working in a silo right at home by yourself. Hi, there. Thanks for listening to Betty’s Smart friends. Here’s a quick money tip that I share with clients. Automate your savings. Set up automatic transfers to your savings accounts to ensure you consistently save a portion of your income. This can help you build an emergency fund and save for future goals without having to think about it.

Betty Wang 00:22:47 Remember, you’re not alone. Now back to the show. And talking about compensation. What else should we be looking at? Other than purely salary target bonus? I mean, you know, a lot of my clients have rsas or some sort of equity comp. What are you seeing out there that people should consider? I mean, I know that sometimes people feel like working from home or being hybrid is not a given. So they’re trying to negotiate that because especially we as women, we have a lot of other priorities, right. Kids, aging parents, floods in our house, all these sorts of things. Right. Just there’s a lot. Yeah.

Tori Finucane 00:23:34 So yeah, this past week for sure. Yeah. So there is a lot. So just remember, I mean, when you go into you want, do you want to get a dress for a wedding. You don’t go into one store and just pick from what they have to choose from. Right. We might look in a lot of different areas for the right fit, and that’s always something that you need to keep in mind.

Betty Wang 00:23:54 So how many times have you used that analogy? I was like, that’s a good one.

Tori Finucane 00:24:00 You know what? I think that just kind of came to me. Yeah. Done a lot of career coaching in my life. I’m sure I’m full of them, but I think it’s a good visual to have. I mean, it’s just not a one size fits all. You don’t see that one company or that one day you got frustrated with your boss. So you went on, you know, LinkedIn and applied to it. But that’s not what’s ever going to be there if you really are really are committed to progressing your career and to a career search, you will look over a period of time. Over that period of time, you’ll find that you know and kind of have a short list. I have a teenager now, and I know you do two that’s looking at colleges, right? You know this. You don’t just say, hey, I feel like applying to, to this school today and let’s just cross our fingers.

Tori Finucane 00:24:46 It’s a long process of of seeing what’s going to work for you, what’s going to help you be successful. So kind of prior to this, you know, job search, have that in your mind in that these are the things I’m really looking for. I’ve I’ve been working long enough that I understand that this is the right environment. This is the I love having a, you know, a performance bonus because that helps drive my performance. Look for something that has that certain industries you’ve you’ve, at this point in your career have developed a skill set and knowledge of certain industries and, and use that to your advantage that might cut out some other industries from your search. There was a point in my career when I interviewed for a financial institution, and during the interview they told me that, you know, the dress was very professional. I couldn’t see that for myself. You know, financial industries pays a lot of money. It’s a great industry for the right person. I couldn’t see myself doing that.

Betty Wang 00:25:49 I have a lot of suits. Yeah. I still remember I have a lot. A lot of suits. My armor. My armor, for sure.

Tori Finucane 00:25:56 Well, and, you know, that is appealing to some people. My good friend here, she’s worked in finance her whole life. Loves getting a suit on on her heels.

Betty Wang 00:26:06 I still don’t wear. I don’t wear them anymore. And I’m a different kind of financial professional.

Tori Finucane 00:26:13 Well, and you found a niche for yourself, and that’s great, you know. And you could do the other if that fit with your lifestyle or your career goals, but you’re not. And just be honest with yourself about what you’re looking for, and that list will narrow itself down for you. You know, at this point, sometimes we can only peddle our wares and places that we’ve worked at before and places, but industries that that we’re familiar with, we’re going to be more attractive to them because we’ve spent ten years in pharmaceutical sales or something like, you know, something similar.

Tori Finucane 00:26:46 so keep that in mind and just understand what your own goals are so that you can find the right fit. And then another thing I always tell people is that during the interview, you’re interviewing them too, right? You know, you want to know, is this the place I’m going to blood, sweat and tears for, you know, do they have my same priorities? Do they share my same passion? Do they have a vision that I can I can align myself with? So I say none of that talks about pay, right? But I think it’s critical to being for having job satisfaction. I’ve seen people really burn out fast. If they say, well, I took the job for the pay, but it wasn’t all I cracked. It was cracked up to be. I’m going to go to a job for it’s a lower pay and I’m going to be happier. And you’ve heard people make those decisions. I’ve made that my that decision myself at different times in my life. So it’s not just about pay, but if it is about pay now, what you can do is, you know, again, going back to understanding the value of your skills and experience.

Tori Finucane 00:27:45 And I don’t want to say that that’s just a Google search, that is networking, that is talking, you know, maybe with a compensation professional that that you might know in your life that you can reach out to,

Betty Wang 00:27:58 If they don’t know anybody. Like, I’m fortunate to know you, although I’ve never actually asked you for myself, I probably should have. but. And, like, are there, you know, like, for financial planning, there’s a certified financial planner. Is there, like, something similar for you? Because maybe you don’t want to go to your compensation analyst if your company happens to have one. Is there some sort of accreditation that they should be looking for?

Tori Finucane 00:28:26 Sure, sure. So, you know, there are going to be different people in the space that that do consulting work. Do they do it for applicants? No. They typically do it for companies. But those are the same people that will be able to tell you, hey, your skills are worth this in the marketplace.

Tori Finucane 00:28:41 And they’re called certified compensation professionals. CCP is what it’s called, and it’s offered through an organization called World at Work. And again, while this is an organization primarily with an audience of compensation analysts, compensation professionals, I think just anybody would get some value out of some of the articles that they have listed, some of the information that they have posted, and they certainly do have a referral for professionals.

Betty Wang 00:29:09 I mean, I remember helping a client through her negotiation and, you know, I went on a deed and I googled, and then I also went to the, you know, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and it’ll break it down by wage, but it’s just the average. So it’s really like I feel like it doesn’t really give you enough information to feel like, okay. Right.

Tori Finucane 00:29:34 No. That’s true. And and what a compensation professional is trained to do is to break through some of that noise and understand what number is meaningful and what one isn’t. So what number applies to you in this role to kind of break through that noise a little bit? You know, hey, if we’re talking about your listeners, they can always reach out to me.

Tori Finucane 00:29:53 I’m happy to help. So please provide my contact information. But, you know, having said that, what you’re looking for in a pay package and we haven’t really touched on this is that it’s going to be broken down into different components. Primarily, you’re going to get your base pay. Base pay is based on what those skills, experience and abilities are worth in the marketplace and the value they have to the company. So that’s what your compensation person is doing is, is evaluating, hey, we need to pay this amount. And in our company those skills are valued x or similarly to this person. So we’re going to develop a range around that. That’s going to be about this amount. Where should you target your salary within that range. Right at the top. Girl I mean go for gold.

Betty Wang 00:30:38 Do you think that. I mean, I think that would be uncomfortable for a lot of women. I know that I would be uncomfortable. Like, is that, you know, we’d feel like we are going to put them put them off.

Betty Wang 00:30:46 Right? That we’re just greedy. Is that coming from the other side, from your perspective? Do you ever feel like that when you get a response like, I think I deserve this. Do you expect it?

Tori Finucane 00:30:58 No. Absolutely not. I mean, if you’ve done your homework and you know, I absolutely expect it. So I would say to anybody out there that has that sort of hang up to say, don’t have it because what a company is doing with that range is saying we fully expect to pay this full amount. However, we’re going to going to protect ourselves, and what we’re protecting ourselves from is to say the person sitting next to you, you know, has X amount of experience and has paid this amount. So what we feel your internal position in our company should be is is it this amount. So they may come back and say, hey, with this position we’re we’re able to offer you X amount. You know, we’d like to see you grow in the position before we can get we can get you to the top of the range.

Tori Finucane 00:31:43 Are you comfortable with that? I would still say no. I would still say no. I really you know, my skills are really valuable. I bring a lot of experience to your company, and I think I can make a huge impact. And I’d really like to be considered for the top of the range because they are able to pay that or they wouldn’t have put it out there inside tip. So that’s something. A little nugget to keep in mind. Yes.

Betty Wang 00:32:08 So how like what are your recommendations to let’s say you find out that some. I mean, what are you seeing out there that are. I’m sure it’s not at your company, of course, but when there’s. Are you seeing that the the pay gap is lessening? Because it sounds like studies out there are showing that it’s very, very slow to, to lessen.

Tori Finucane 00:32:31 So it is slow. And as a analyst and as a researcher, if someone who works with data a lot, I always have to consider the source of some of that information, and it’s important to know where it comes from.

Tori Finucane 00:32:43 Are we talking about, you know, the same level of jobs? Are we talking about C-suite jobs? Women haven’t been accessing that, you know, for as long as men have been able to. So if you’re comparing those jobs, you just don’t see a lot of visibility yet. It is a slow burn because that’s a position that takes 20, 30 years in the workforce to get to. 20 or 30 years ago, that woman was at a clear disadvantage from her male counterparts. And we’ve come a long way since then. I used to do a program for college graduates about pay negotiation and and the gender pay gap. And the thought of this program was that if we can educate women, you know, in the same way to, you know, know their worth and be able to talk about pay and we can get them in a better position throughout their career. And I don’t think that’s that’s wrong. It’s just that throughout their career that’s decades. So we do have, you know, a little ways to go.

Tori Finucane 00:33:39 But when I was doing that, I will have to say that it was $0.73. Oh, and so if we’re looking at something in the 80s, it sounds icky poo, but it still is better. The lot better than than where we’ve come from. And we can be proud of that. And I think the laws are moving in the right direction. Transparency is definitely moving in the right direction. I mean, our women coming into the workforce now, they’re demanding answers, they want information and they are holding companies accountable to provide that. And I love.

Betty Wang 00:34:10 That. Yeah. I mean, I feel like the world’s a better place for the women behind us. Or hopefully. Right. Just like we’re. We’re in a better place than the women that came before us. What about the US? Right. Like, so we’ve probably already had some years of making less than our male counterparts. How how do you frame the negotiation? What would be your advice for us to go into? Let’s say you’re in a company for a long time and you feel underpaid, especially compared to maybe not even just your male counterparts, but to what’s out there in, you know, in the market.

Betty Wang 00:34:47 Because, I mean, we see that when you when somebody’s been loyal to a company for a long time, the company doesn’t have to pay up to to keep you there. And women are not known to ask for more money. But what would you say to them if they say, wow, I, I really am underpaid? How do you how should they approach the conversation? What are the steps that you should take?

Tori Finucane 00:35:10 Sure. So, I mean, if you are in a position where you do want to stay at your your current employer, the same sort of things apply. Know your worth. Know what your skills are going for in the marketplace. And then use that as to to sort of bolster your negotiation, your position. Think also too about your career trajectory. Are you looking to advance to another level? It’s not often about pay, but what can I do to get there? So asking a mentor, asking, you know, somebody who’s in a position above you, you know, what can I do to broaden my skill set so I can get to the next level? If you don’t see yourself at the next level in your company, you might want to look elsewhere so that you can see yourself advancing.

Tori Finucane 00:35:51 So that’s that’s one thing. That’s a piece of career advice I give a lot of people that are asking about money is is making sure that you are maximizing your earning potential, and that’s getting to higher level jobs. That’s one way to do it, you know. Another way is just to simply ask and say, you know what? Not for nothing. But. And I actually am guilty of doing this too, because it’s actually true with the information that we get constantly. You know, I might get a LinkedIn message with information about a new job, and the posting on there will say, hey, you can make up to this amount. And if you’re not making that amount, you know, that’s maybe one clue that if that that’s something that happens to you, that you’re not at that amount. That’s an easy conversation with a manager to say, hey, do you mind if I just bend your ear about something I found out or I’ve looked at, or I was given information about this, or I have a friend in another company that’s this.

Tori Finucane 00:36:42 And say, you know, it just concerns me that I might not be maximizing my earnings here. What are some ways I can do that? Is there a function by which we can have my pay and my grade looked at. Because there oftentimes is. And that’s again behind the curtain stuff that you might not be aware of. There’s absolutely a function that will look at your pay and and make sure that the company is being paid fairly. You’re being paid fairly in that company. and a lot of the states with the pay transparency laws, they. If your company isn’t being transparent, the law is now holding them accountable to. Be transparent so that they have to disclose a pay range for your position. And if you find that you’re lower in that pay range than you think you should be. I’ve been doing this job for five, six years. What is it? What does it take to move into the higher into the pay range? So absolutely, someone that can that can look at that for you.

Tori Finucane 00:37:29 So so understand that. And again it’s not about base pay. You want to look at bonuses. You want to look at. And what are the factors to maximize that bonus. Is there an individual performance factor then. Hey you know make sure that you understand what levers can be pulled to maximize that that performance lever. And hopefully a boss, a good boss will be able to explain that to you. Companies have goal setting processes, performance management processes, performance evaluations. And it usually, at least in my company, I know at least one time a year your pay and your total compensation is being looked at and rewarded and changed, hopefully for the better. And so those are great times to have this conversation with somebody who’s able to. You’re able to have a conversation with whether it’s your boss, if you don’t feel comfortable there. Go. Go right to your HR rep.

Betty Wang 00:38:18 Are there other things that we haven’t talked about today that you think are important for people to know?

Tori Finucane 00:38:23 Well, you asked about rsas and and equity that that a company may provide for as part of your compensation package.

Tori Finucane 00:38:32 And then I kind of transitioned it to be like, hey, look for an employer that’s a good fit for you. And what I meant to sort of tie that into is to say companies operate differently, especially if they’re a private company, a public company, a nonprofit company, a company, but a nonprofit organization or institution. I worked in higher ed for about ten years of my career. Those compensation plans are drastically different than what you’re going to see in the corporate world, right? So there’s going to be different kind of of offerings depending. I mean, you might get to a point like yourself. You’re an independent, you know, person who you know. No one’s no one’s dictating your, you know, salary. So maybe maybe that applies to you, your independent practitioner. So but know what kind of pay package is going to be meaningful for you and and go after that. So don’t expect a a public company that provides, you know, annual performance bonuses. And so if you switch out of that and go to a, hey, I’m going to go to a startup company where I can really like put my stamp on things.

Tori Finucane 00:39:38 And that’s going to be a very different pay program. Yeah. So you know, know yourself and kind of put down your wish list of how do I see myself getting paid, what’s what’s important to me. And, and look for companies that that fit that mold. That’s really.

Betty Wang 00:39:53 Good advice. I don’t know when you became so smart.

Tori Finucane 00:39:56 I was probably the day I met you.

Betty Wang 00:39:58 Yeah, probably. Probably. I just wasn’t smart enough to know it. Since this is a podcast for for women and of a certain age, all of us are struggling with life changing. How do you personally deal with keeping your sanity or keeping yourself centered?

Tori Finucane 00:40:13 Oh gosh. So that’s probably not something I’ve learned to do yet.

Betty Wang 00:40:20 Well, that’s why I’m asking, just as I think we’re all thinking about it, right? Like, you know, it’s something that works for some one person might work for another.

Tori Finucane 00:40:28 Sure. So and I actually I have to give my kids credit for this because a lot of times we don’t practice what we preach.

Tori Finucane 00:40:38 I will say things. Gee, I don’t know if that sounds familiar to everybody, but do as I say, not as I do kind of thing where I might ask them about their day and I get it was fine. You know nothing. Yeah. I actually tell them about my day, and it helps me reflect on some of the things that maybe I accomplished in, in my day. Well, guess what I was telling them about coming on the podcast today and that I was excited about it, and I’ll tell them how it went later and hopefully they’ll ask. But even if they don’t, I will tell. I ask them to share with me, and I’m not sharing some of the things that maybe I did that I’m proud of that day or. Yeah. And that’s something that honestly just dawned on me in the last few months, you know, having one word answer teenagers. I’m like, gosh, how can I get them to talk more? You know, I could talk more about myself, too.

Tori Finucane 00:41:28 They might not care. Listen. But I’ve found in the process that it’s helped me to sort of reflect and feel good about some of the things that, you know.

Betty Wang 00:41:36 Oh, that’s nice.

Tori Finucane 00:41:37 That I’ve been able to.

Betty Wang 00:41:38 Do. Yeah. Well, and you’re a natural sharer.

Tori Finucane 00:41:42 Probably overshare, but yeah.

Betty Wang 00:41:45 No, it’s a good thing. And the other thing I’m curious about is, you know, I deal with a lot of people or with women retiring. And the studies show that, you know, what a huge factor in whether you’re content in retirement is if you have a passion or a hobby that can sort of take not to take the place of work, but occupy your mind and your time and your energy. And you know, I’m in the market for a new hobby. What do you do for fun?

Tori Finucane 00:42:15 excellent. I, I really kind of go all over the place, but I have to say some of my, my newest passion has been embroidery. I’ll have to say, I.

Betty Wang 00:42:24 Oh, how can you do that? I mean, I did it when I was young and it was hurt my eyes then.

Tori Finucane 00:42:31 Right. And it’s it’s only getting worse.

Betty Wang 00:42:34 Or threading a needle. I can’t, I can’t imagine threading a needle. I tried to do that to sew on a button, and I couldn’t get it in the. In the eye.

Tori Finucane 00:42:44 Exactly. I know it’s impossible. And do I have the time or the energy? Half the time to do it? No, but I do love it. And they say that doing something with your hand as a hobby helps to relax your brain. And it takes pressure off of having to think for a minute, especially if you have a high stress job. So just even take a pottery class, something with your hands that, like I got into paint by numbers during the pandemic, loved it. I, I couldn’t even like do it anymore because I have too many. I was just like, what am I going to do with all of these? Right? But the best thing that I found and so search this out, if is, if it’s available to you, is there’s a little craft studio down the street for me.

Tori Finucane 00:43:23 She just opened up. And so not only is it just convenient if I’m able to stop by, but she does open studio hours. You can just go in and work on anything that you want.

Betty Wang 00:43:33 That’s fun.

Tori Finucane 00:43:34 And no one’s bothering me. And it’s very well lit. And she has magnifying glass and she has all the tools that I can.

Betty Wang 00:43:42 So she knows. She knows her target market.

Tori Finucane 00:43:47 Yes. Yes, exactly. So you just don’t feel so alone in your struggle? But I found that as a as a great tool. But it’s it takes effort. Just like anything, right? Even hobbies take effort. And it’s terrible to say, but you have to build time in for them if you want to get the benefit for them. And that is something that we’re definitely lacking. I had a boss that used to say, it’s not time management, it’s priority management. That always stuck with me when I think I don’t have time for that. Nope. I’m just not prioritizing it. I’m not making it something that I’m building into my day, especially if it’s for ourselves.

Tori Finucane 00:44:23 It just goes down the list of importance, right? But it shouldn’t be. And you know, you just have to build it in if you don’t want it to be.

Betty Wang 00:44:31 I’m still thinking about the working with your hands. I tried I took a knitting class in San Francisco because I had read, I think I had read that Julia Roberts did it. And for for those reasons, for the stress. And I found it so stressful to knit. It made me angry. I would get sweaty, my scarf looked like a Batman mask because it was a triangle with like three holes in it. It was. Yeah. So that that maybe maybe I need to pick that up again.

Tori Finucane 00:45:00 Or I think what’s important is to do something that, you know, it does. You feel do you feel good about you know, it shouldn’t make you angry. That’s probably not the good. You know.

Betty Wang 00:45:11 What I did do during Covid was I hooked, which was actually, you know, no mind. Thought you just picked the color.

Tori Finucane 00:45:19 No. And that’s the goal, right? It’s an easy process. It’s repetitive. You can’t really mess it up. Although I could, but I.

Betty Wang 00:45:26 Really didn’t know what to do with it. After I think I sent it, I made it into a pillow as a as a joke for friends. It was a fox.

Tori Finucane 00:45:35 Which is perfect. Maybe that’s what I should do with all my paint by numbers. You’ll get one in the mail.

Betty Wang 00:45:40 Oh, great. Oh, goody. Well, thank you so much for doing this.

Tori Finucane 00:45:45 Thank you so much for having me.

Betty Wang 00:45:47 I thought it was really, really important information and really, I think educational All for for me and for all my listeners. Good.

Tori Finucane 00:45:55 I hope it helps someone. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:45:57 Well, have a good day.

Tori Finucane 00:45:58 Thank you. You too.

Betty Wang 00:46:01 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Betty Smart Friends. I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation and that you learn something new. You can connect with us on social media to stay updated on future episodes.

Betty Wang 00:46:14 Share your thoughts and join our community of smart friends. You can find us on Instagram at Betty Financial, and don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode! If you are feeling ready to be more empowered and less alone in your financial life, please schedule a complimentary 15 minutes with me. The link is in the show notes. Please see the show notes for important disclosures regarding BW financial planning and this episode. Until next time, remember you are not alone. We got you.