EPISODE OVERVIEW:

What happens to your finances when your world falls apart?

Christopher Dale, Certified Financial Planner and Certified Financial Transitionist, has lived that question. As a young man, he cared for both parents through serious illness, and when he lost them, he also inherited a mountain of financial decisions he wasn’t prepared to make.

Now he helps others navigate what he calls the hardest intersection in personal finance: grief and money.

In this episode, Christopher shares his story with honesty and heart. We talk about why major financial decisions made during loss can feel impossible, why pushing through anyway often backfires, and what real support looks like when life changes overnight.

Whether you are personally experiencing loss or supporting someone who is, this episode offers compassion, clarity, and hope for life after grief. 

Listen in. 

TIME STAMPS: 

[03:00] Christopher’s Personal Story of Loss
Caregiving for both parents during serious illness
Facing multiple family losses in a short period of time

[08:20] Financial Decisions During Emotional Stress
Balancing emotional attachment with practical financial choices
Deciding whether to sell or keep a family home during market decline

[12:40] Why Big Decisions Should Wait
Avoiding irreversible financial decisions during grief
Importance of having a trusted advisor as a decision buffer

[19:05] Building Life After Grief
Transitioning from corporate work to purpose-driven financial planning
Creating a business focused on supporting clients through loss

[29:10] Finding Support and Regaining Stability
Connecting widows with peer support organizations
Role of counseling, community, and giving back in healing

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

• Grief significantly impacts decision-making that can directly impact decision-making
• Avoid making irreversible financial decisions during periods of intense loss
• Having a trusted advisor or support system helps separate emotion from technical choices for decisions that cannot wait
• Community support and shared experiences aren’t just comforting, they can be essential to healing
• Purpose-driven work and helping others can be a powerful part of rebuilding life

GUEST INFO: 

Christopher Dale, CFP and CeFT helping clients through money and grief; author, speaker 

• Website https://lifeaftergrieffp.com/
• LinkedIn  https://www.linkedin.com/in/lifeaftergriefchrisdale/
• Instagram  https://www.instagram.com/cdd2dale/
• X https://x.com/cdd2dale

RESOURCES:

• Join Betty in a free consultation call for your financial goals
• Subscribe to the Betty’s Smart Friends YouTube Channel
• Follow us on Instagram
• Visit my website for more info
• Follow us on LinkedIn

Betty Wang is an investment adviser representative of BW Financial LLC, a registered investment adviser registered in the State of Colorado. Registration does not imply a certain level of skill or training. The views and opinions expressed are as of the date of publication and are subject to change. The content is for informational or educational purposes only, and is not intended as individualized investment advice. This information should not be relied upon as the sole factor in an investment-making decision. You are encouraged to consult with a financial professional to address your specific needs and circumstances.

TRANSCRIPTION:

Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze

Betty Wang 00:00:01 There are moments in life when financial decisions matter the most, and they tend to happen when you’re the least equipped emotionally to make them. Today, we’re going to talk about how to navigate money during one of those moments when you’re experiencing the debilitating grief after the death of a loved one. I’m Betty Wang, host of Betty Smart Friends. I help women navigate big life transitions and make confident decisions about their money, and today’s conversation is for anyone who has experienced loss or love someone who has. Because when life changes overnight, whether it’s losing a spouse, stepping into a caregiving role, or suddenly becoming the one responsible for financial decisions, it can feel overwhelming very quickly. I’m joined today by Christopher Dale. He’s a certified financial planner and a certified financial transition list. He’s the founder of Life After Grief Financial planning Chris specializes in helping people navigate the financial side of grief. What to do, what not to do, and how to move forward when everything feels uncertain. He’s also the author of a powerful new book, Life After Grief, holding the numbers with shaking hands when money, trauma, grief and racism collide.

Betty Wang 00:01:20 The book captures what it really feels like to make financial decisions when your world has been turned upside down. I’ve had the honor of receiving an early copy of it ahead of its 20th April 29th release, and it’s a deeply personal book that I believe will help many people navigate difficult times. And what makes Chris’s perspective especially meaningful is that it’s grounded in the lived experience. He’s been the caretaker, he’s been the the decision maker and the one trying to rebuild after a devastating loss. He’s also a colleague, a mentor and a friend, and we’re so lucky to have him here with us today. Chris, welcome and I’m so glad you’re here. Thanks for being here.

Christopher Dale 00:02:05 I feel like, you’re the smart friend here, so.

Betty Wang 00:02:09 No no no.

Multiple Speakers 00:02:10 No no no.

Betty Wang 00:02:12 Chris and I were talking beforehand, and I am so intimidated with him being on here. But you’re so accomplished, Chris. An amazing, amazing human. And so I’d love to share with people a little bit about your story. You know, as we learn or as readers will learn in your book, you’ve experienced a lot, a lot of loss in your life.

Betty Wang 00:02:34 and through these times, you’ve been the person that your family has looked to to deal with the practical financial aspects, whether you are ready or not, and all while you’re processing the deep grief yourself. can you tell us a little bit about your experience and and maybe share if you can put it into words? You know how that those moments is big moments. Feel.

Christopher Dale 00:03:00 Sure. I appreciate all the accolades. first and foremost, the feeling is totally mutual. And, I look up to certain people, and I look up to certain people because of what they value, how they approach life and their candor. And I take a lot of other people’s energy, and I try to spend time with people that I value, and Betty is in that circle. So that’s before I explain anything about me and kind of what got me here. I like to give credit where credit is due. To answer your question, my life changed dramatically in 2008. I was a caregiver for both my parents essentially up until 2008.

Christopher Dale 00:03:49 My mother was diagnosed with breast cancer. Excuse me, breast cancer in 1994. She had aggressive treatments, bone marrow transplant, chemotherapy, radiation, and she experienced Alzheimer’s because of the aggressive treatments. There were some other things that went on which I found out about later. And so in 2008, again, I was a caregiver for my mother. I had to place her into a nursing home at my expense at $5,000 a pop. And, then my father, several months after my mom passed away, he passed away. But in advance of that, my wife and I purchased their home. And this is right with the real estate boom. And I was probably 32 or so at the time. I had no money, and I had to figure out quickly how to be able to fund my parents. When they ran out of money, I had to quickly figure out how to bridge this careful gap between embedding and. I were talking about this before the podcast. When there is any inheritance, right? Siblings or beneficiaries fight no matter who they are.

Christopher Dale 00:05:06 There was no inheritance and there was no inheritance because I chose to purchase my parent’s house. That was their only asset and that was something that I knew my brother and I would fight over. And so that’s really where kind of my story begins. for me, it was kind of a life changing. And August of 2008, my mom passed away, November of 2008. My father passed away, but my life didn’t change in those moments. The day that my father passed away. And I hope I’m not breaking this for you. In the book, there was something dramatic that happened, that shifted. And I’m not going to tell you, Betty, because I don’t think you’ve read that part that I’ve shifted. That has shifted everything that I knew about my life. It was one phone call, and my brother is very blunt, and he said, everything that you knew about your life before that was a lie.

Multiple Speakers 00:06:09 Wow.

Christopher Dale 00:06:10 And so but what it did is it put in perspective experiences that I went through as a child.

Christopher Dale 00:06:17 It really honed in this experience of why I have such an allegiance to manage and control money. And there were just certain things that happened. You know, as I was growing up but didn’t understand, I just dealt with things as they came. And so it’s very, very complex. And then I, as you alluded to, I experienced some deaths after that happened. So my parents passed away, like I said in 2008. My paternal grandmother, who was the matriarch of her family, passed away in 2010 or so. So about a year and a half after, and then my wife and I were expecting twins and 2012. And so we lost one of the twins. So we have two living sons and we have three sons total. So, it put hair on my chest, so to speak, and it made my perspective on life dramatically different, kind of going forward.

Betty Wang 00:07:21 How did you get through? I mean, these are times where. When people are going through any of these losses that you went through kind of all in quick succession.

Betty Wang 00:07:37 there are certain things, practical things that need to happen. Right. And people were looking to you to do that. What for folks who are in that situation right now. What would you what would you want them to know?

Christopher Dale 00:07:57 Well, if I take the very specific situation where I had my parents house and it’s always going to be their house no matter who owned it, right? I was just the bank at the time. I had this house. And at the bottom of the real estate market, I had to make a decision whether I was going to sell the house or whether I was going to maintain it to rent, rent it out. I had no one to help me out with that decision. My position now is I’m helping people like that. And it’s to your the point of your question. I made the right decision, right? I was able to separate the emotional component and make the technical decision at that point. And the technical decision was I sell this house at a loss. I’m still going to be on the hook for some money, or I rent it out and the house will go up in value.

Christopher Dale 00:08:39 Right. That’s a very hard decision to make when you’re emotionally involved, especially if you have no one to give you guidance. Right. So those are the kind of things that we as advisors help clients to make those decisions. And candidly, one of the things I’m going to tell you not to do when my parents died, I drank a lot. I had no other skill set to deal with this. And you talk about specifically, I work with women now that have lost a spouse. It’s not, who I exclusively work with, but just the nature of my business. I reached a pit in my stomach that I could not know or void until I drank to nauseam. Right. That wasn’t a healthy way. That was the only way that a 32 year old Christopher Dale knew how to cope. But that that went on for 30 days, and I figured out that I could not do that. So what I did after that, I’m spiritually grounded. I engaged my friends. I engaged my pastor, I call him my personal priest.

Christopher Dale 00:09:46 And so I started to get some help, right? He had recommended for me to go to grief counseling, and for me, my experience was unlike anyone my age. Yeah. And so it was only in the grace of folks that were 20 and 30 years older than me say, hey, we’ve been through these experiences now. Their normal and they were normalized. They weren’t so foreign to me. The other thing, too, that I learned about that I learned back then was, and this is very, very difficult to do when you’re grieving, but when you give back, it kind of ranks where you are in the world. And my wife was going on a missionary trip to Ghana and I was like, well, I’m going to be here by myself. I’m just going to be wallowing in my own pity. And I went to Ghana. And you talk about the Americanized society, right? And, you know, people want to have the latest watch or they want to have the latest jeans or the latest iPhone.

Christopher Dale 00:10:55 I went there and there was a child in the market, right? He had nothing but a stick with a piece of string, and it was a bug that was tied around this string. And he had a toy and I was watching him. Right. It cost him nothing other than the time and energy and the thought to create this. And I said to myself, man, that’s that’s pretty cool. I was a medical assistant to a dentist, but giving of myself was such a great feeling. And on that trip, I thought nothing about what had happened at home. Right. And I’m totally giving to these other folks. And so, to answer your question directly, my spiritual journey, my aspect of surrounding myself with people that could support me and then me giving back. That is really what helped me.

Betty Wang 00:11:50 What about the financial pieces for someone who’s going through this? What are things that they should not rush into or. I mean, I think, you know, I’ve met some of my clients are widows as well, not as not my exclusive focus, but I find that they are want to do everything because that’s what they think they’re supposed to do, but they can’t handle.

Betty Wang 00:12:15 Or they it’s not that they can’t handle it. They’re just so overwhelmed. Sure. And there’s so much noise out there. And I mean, another thing we should talk about is like, this is when they are the most vulnerable. This is where sketchy folks come out of the woodwork 100%. what, what were things? And not only through work, but your experience going through some of these losses that, you know, like that these can wait.

Christopher Dale 00:12:45 I’m going to answer that question with the story with a recent widow.

Multiple Speakers 00:12:48 Yeah.

Christopher Dale 00:12:49 And so I had a recent widow that was, referred to me. She was very, very high functioning, an executive functioning lady, but she couldn’t function, and it was really bothering her, and she couldn’t figure out why. And she had all this chaos really going on in her mind. And I’m going to bridge the gap here. No different than when I was going through all that chaos my own. Okay. Very, very similar. And I can’t say that I ever have the same experience of a widow.

Christopher Dale 00:13:21 But the grief mirrors each other and the emotions mirror each other. And so as I’m, you know, talking to this widow and I’m putting her into, a couple of categories, right? Is she still is she analytical or is she emotional and her executive function functioning would say that she’s analytical, but her natural style is she’s intuitive, is what I would call, and she wants to assimilate with people that have a like experience. So I honed in on that aspect. Right. And so as we’re talking, I’m trying not to overwhelm her. And I go to her house, and her house is very well organized, but I could just see it on her face that she is just completely out of it. And so what I did for her in that time is I did some meditation and I do a lot of meditation now, and I wanted to get her level set to where she could at least concentrate for the next several hours. Right. And a lot of advisors, when they’re first encountering someone that’s in that situation, I really don’t know how to approach it or they’re very, very uncomfortable about doing so.

Christopher Dale 00:14:40 So in this situation with this widow, she was like, wow. I feel like relaxed for the first time in a long time. And then we are able to go through some things to help her out in the immediacy. Right. And so the immediacy of not making big financial decisions, the immediacy is not taking the advice of everybody, right? And not making decisions on emotion. That’s probably the biggest thing. When I talked about the House. That was something that I was able to sidestep making a decision on emotion. And I would say for 99% of the population, one of the keys to being able to eliminate that emotional component is having a buffer. That buffer, Betty, is you. The buffer is someone that does stuff like you appear a colleague like that, having someone in your corner. It could be even a trusted friend or a family member. But I think that is very, very key because you don’t know what you don’t know unless you talk to someone else. And so when I am working with folks, I say, don’t make timely decisions.

Christopher Dale 00:15:56 Decisions can be forgiven, right? and don’t make decisions that are irrevocable. A decision that is irrevocable would have been me selling that house back in 2008, when I had a loss on the House. That’s an irrevocable decision, but someone in our capacity can help you out with that.

Betty Wang 00:16:18 Yeah. I mean, I should mention that Chris also trains advisors like me, who are working with people experiencing loss because not everybody takes the time. and therefore can’t be as effective with their clients. when they’re going through this experience, there is science that shows that women, men, anyone who’s grieving their brains just don’t process things. There’s scientific evidence of that.

Multiple Speakers 00:16:49 So brain fog.

Betty Wang 00:16:51 Yeah. Brain. Yes. And so Chris holds seminars and teaches advisors how to go through these processes. How in your book you say, my clients don’t don’t join my team, I join theirs. So it’s how can we as advisors be part of your team, of somebody who’s grieving or our client’s team, rather than seeing it the other way around? So I think, you know, everything you’re saying is speaks to the special place that you hold in your client’s life and for you to take that time.

Betty Wang 00:17:27 I don’t think people realize that they’re not all advisors are made the same.

Christopher Dale 00:17:34 I would agree with you, and I’ll take that a step further. And thank you again for the accolades. I think if your heart is in the right place, a lot of things can be forgiven. You can stumble a lot, and as long as your heart is in the right place and there’s no doubt I have stumbled through a lot of clients. And in this process and this learning process, and me getting to the point where I only want to work with the clients that I want to work with, I’ve lost some clients that don’t fit that mold of life after grief. Right? They are focused on something else, and that was a stumbling block really for me. But what it did is it opened the doors for me to really nail, you know, laser focus on the clients that I want to help with. Because, again, like you said, I have so much lived experience that for me would be I would feel guilty if I weren’t giving back.

Betty Wang 00:18:38 Well, I think you and I have talked about it. If for you and for me, this our profession is a calling. It’s not, It’s not our profession. I guess it’s it’s, What I feel like we were called to do, in a way. Can you explain to our listeners what life after grief means to you and how you work with your clients? I think what you do is so special for those who are lucky enough to call you their, you know, their trusted adviser.

Christopher Dale 00:19:10 Well, life after grief, what it means for me. So, my boys and my family are at the top of my list, right? I rank things in my life. So God is at the top, then my family and then friends. And so I was trying to figure out when I was working in the corporate world. They didn’t care about, you know, my family or the life work balance. They just cared about me producing a certain amount of money, and I respect that. Right.

Christopher Dale 00:19:39 That wasn’t fulfilling for me. And I had this. You know, we’ve disclosed here this experience. And what was more fulfilling for me were to help people like Chris Dale back in 2008. And so I figured out a way with very good help. I had a very good mentor at the time. She has since passed away. That helped me. She said, Chris, you have the technical knowledge. We just need to get you on the other side. She said, who do you want to work with? And I said, I guess I want to work with people that were like me. And I had pressure and the pressure was I wasn’t able to spend as much time with my boys. Right. And my father wasn’t there. You know, early in my life. And he came back in late in my life, but I never wanted my boys to experience that right. If I can control that and I just, I it’s a shame because my mark, Chris Dales mark can be so much broader and more by putting the stamp on two young boys, and I had no idea really what that meant until today, where they give that back to so many other kids in the form of coaching or whatever they do.

Christopher Dale 00:20:54 And obviously my wife and I were a team, a solid team. and so the life after grief came as a result of her experiencing all this stuff alongside of me, and then me going to her and say, hey, I want to make this dramatic change. I’m not going to I don’t want to work in the corporate world. I want to start my own practice. Right? We have no backup plan, and the backup plan is Anne-Marie. Is my wife. You going back to work? Because the boys were a little bit older. Now we have an insurance. But my cushion, as far as the income that I’m making from this corporate job, that’s gone right, and we have to plan for 12 months of no income. that’s going to be a shift. And, she said, yeah, let’s do it. I was like, whoa, okay.

Multiple Speakers 00:21:45 And, well, everything.

Betty Wang 00:21:46 You shared about her, she sounds like a badass.

Multiple Speakers 00:21:49 So, yeah, she sounds very formidable.

Christopher Dale 00:21:51 Yeah.

Christopher Dale 00:21:51 She is. And so, we took that leap of faith together, and I only went three months without, income. And so what that did is it allowed me to do a lot of other things ahead of schedule and for other people. So this Life After Grief now morphed into what you had said, training other advisors, because I’m out just doing my thing, you know, just trying to keep things afloat. And then there was one advisor. He caught wind of what I was doing, and he said, hey, man, I, can I steal, like, an hour of your time? And so then there was another advisor and another advisor, and it became a little bit overwhelming for me because my bread and butter is my financial practice. and so I said, well, this is the need for other advisors. So let me just put something together. and then it just kind of morphed from there and it became very, very fun and very fulfilling. And they overlapped. Right. And I found out through talking to other advisors, different situations than anyone’s that I encountered.

Christopher Dale 00:22:59 So now my learning curve is not just singularly Chris Dale, you know, it’s hundreds, of just different scenarios.

Betty Wang 00:23:11 Oh, I want to get back to your book a little bit, just, because I think it’s I think it’s going to be really helpful for people. And I think The visual of holding the numbers with shaking hands. can you talk a little bit about, you know, how you pick that phrase and why? And, I know everybody deals with grief differently, but I think it really gets to the heart of what people really have to deal with when they’re dealing with loss and also in estate.

Christopher Dale 00:23:47 Sure. Holding the numbers with shaking hands. So we’ll talk about life after grief, I think is pretty self-explanatory, but holding the numbers with shaking hands. So as I gave you that example of my wife and I purchasing my parents house, right. Don’t have money, but I had great credit thanks to my parents, right? They gave me some very good financial backing and some very financial, very good financial things that happened for me.

Christopher Dale 00:24:14 So I had good credit along with my wife. And so we were able to purchase their house. Right? I don’t know what I’m doing at the time. I just know that I need to be in control of what’s going to happen next. And so I’m going along and literally as I’m going along, I you can just imagine my hands are shaking because my mom is sick and she’s ailing, don’t know where the end is in sight. And so then they start needing money, right. And so 2004 is when we purchased their house. The real estate market started to escalate for four more years until, you know, we hit that bottom and everything just fell out. But in those years, what I was able to do is I was able to go and get a line of credit on their house and extend it every year. I had no idea that I was going to be able to do that, and getting credit at the same time was so easy. But what I didn’t know is in 2008, when the bottom fell out, I had this home that was not worth what I could sell it for.

Christopher Dale 00:25:21 So now I’m. I’m shaking and I’m panicking. There’s such an extreme amount of stress that goes along with that. And then I have to make this decision like I had already talked about. And all along. I have a financial mind, Betty, you have a financial mind. But then this is real life stuff that you’re having to deal with. And so there’s so much unknown during this time frame. I don’t know what’s going to happen next. So my parents, the way that it worked out. So again like I said, it was their home. They were paying all the expenses on the house. And again I was just the bank because I could now give them money as they needed money. But when they both passed away, there was no money coming into the house at all. So I had to make some quick decisions and shaking hands because you don’t know what’s coming next. But when you don’t have an income source, you figure out things very, very quickly. Betty, I had to have three estate sales to get rid of the stuff in their house, and that was during December and it was bad timing.

Christopher Dale 00:26:32 The estate sale people felt bad for me because the first two didn’t work and the house was in disarray. My my parents had a cat at the time and they they stopped letting the cat out. And so the cat, you know, messed on. Yeah, there’s thing on the carpets. And so I had to have the carpets ripped out. Had to have the house basically renovated before I could rent it out. And where do you get that money from? And so it’s just this hole. And then I rent the house out, and now I’m having income. Now I can breathe a little bit. Just a little bit. Okay. because I rented it out to older college students whose parents signed the lease, and there was a drug raid on my parents house.

Betty Wang 00:27:27 Wow.

Christopher Dale 00:27:29 and you thought you talk about things just replicating and figuring out stuff as you go. And again, remember that house that I purchased that was underwater? Well, now I’m in a different situation that, Orange County was in a deficit financially.

Christopher Dale 00:27:46 And this is what I was told by my defense attorney that they could have seized that house. So matters now go from bad to worse. And so getting through those situations and figuring out who has got your back and how you can perform. Right. and I’ve made it through those situations. They were some bad, bad situations that I’ve been in. and, you know, you just have to have faith in yourself that you are going to make it to the next point. And I said this to a buddy of mine yesterday who was looking for some advice. I said, when one door closes, another one opens. And that has happened every time in my life, and there’s been a lot of doors that have been shut in my face.

Betty Wang 00:28:35 Well, I think, you know, with the widows that I’ve dealt with or that I’ve worked with, they don’t have that faith right then. Right. They they are so devastated. They don’t they can’t see a better day. What do you share? I mean, and I’m sure that you have clients and friends and family that have also gone through that.

Betty Wang 00:28:59 what do you say to them or how did you. I mean, not every it takes a lot to pull that out of yourself.

Christopher Dale 00:29:07 It does. So if I’m going to be specifically talking about widows. I understand that not everyone, to your point is going to be able to pull themselves out for whatever reason. For widows, what I do is I introduce them to an organization that’s called the Modern Widows Club. The Modern Widows Club is an organization where widows mentor widows. It is a worldwide organization. They happen to be based here in Orlando. If I’m working with a widow that I engage with, I tell them this should be your first point of reference before doing anything with me, because I don’t know your experience. I can’t live through your experience, but what I can do is give you access to where you can immediately go and engage with this organization, and you can get someone that is similar age, similar ethnicity, similar lifestyle, Similar socioeconomic background, similar family structure that can work and talk with you and mentor you.

Christopher Dale 00:30:20 That’s the most powerful thing that I can do, and I can’t tell you after I’ve done that with wasn’t, I tell them, we don’t we should not engage until after you, you know, have some time with this organization. And they’ve come back and said, wow, this this is very, very helpful. And. Through the organization, there’s travel groups. They have some sort of text message chains. They have Facebook groups. And it’s just really, really good. So that is how I help them to try to essentially pull themselves out of a situation. The other thing, too, that I do, and I’m not a counselor, but I always ask the question, have you considered any type of counseling? And it’s not my place to push this, but it is my place to ask and know where they are. And so the one of the widows that I spoke with, she’s like, I’m not seeing a counselor yet, but I’m speaking to my other friend who is a widow. So very parallel with regard to the Modern Widows Club, but she’s done that on her own level, so she doesn’t think that she is pulling herself out.

Christopher Dale 00:31:34 But when someone like me comes in and say, hey, you are already doing that. And I recognize that, and I highlight that, and to say that’s a very defined skill set where you are aligning yourself with someone that is in a similar situation and now you can talk through it. That’s a very, very powerful thing. And sometimes I just come in and I recognize things that they are in such a fog that they can’t see, you know, from the sky what’s really going on with them. And respectable, you shouldn’t be able to, but those are some of the steps that I help to pull some folks out. and I never push counseling, and I just asked the question. There was another widow some years ago that we had engaged, and she she couldn’t function beyond today. Right. And I made the recommendation that, I think you should engage with some other entity, before you engage with me. And it went about six months, and she called me up out of the blue and I said, well, what made the change? And she’s like, you made you made a recommendation on counseling.

Christopher Dale 00:32:43 And I took that. And I’ve been going through counseling and now the brain fog is lifted. So a couple other things, too, about counseling where I’m thinking about it. So my mom had hospice, right? I volunteer for hospice as a result of that, just about on a weekly basis.

Betty Wang 00:32:58 Hospice that is an a, that service, that privilege is. I don’t know how you have all the time.

Christopher Dale 00:33:08 Well, I feel like I have no, no choice, and I’m obligated to do that. Hospice also offers free grief counseling. Whether you were a associated with hospice or not.

Betty Wang 00:33:23 Wow.

Christopher Dale 00:33:25 so a free resource. And so since we’re talking about hospice, some of the things that hospice allows me to do, and I’ve been volunteering for hospice since 2016, so ten years. Right. And so they gave me very specific training on how to work with someone that is a hospice patient. And so some of that training in every week I have this on the job training. Right. I’m very close and near to someone who is going to see the other side.

Christopher Dale 00:33:58 But what it’s done for me, it’s paralleled this experience I had with my mother because I was the one that said to my mom, you can let go. Now everybody is come and see you through the nursing home, right? There’s nobody else that’s coming. And understanding what her body does and what it looks like when she is going to start passing on. I can’t tell you now. I have this formalized training behind me that stamps, that experience that I went through, and now I’m able to identify it when I’m with hospice paying patients. And so I have to give a report every week after I go and see a hospice patient. And I can’t tell you how many times I have given a report. And with the training, and that patient has passed away within seven days, and the hairs stood up on my arm when I when it happened the first time I gave a report and I said to them, I don’t think she’s going to live. by the time that I go see her next week.

Christopher Dale 00:35:00 And Betty, When I showed up to her for my hospice visit the next week, the ambulance was there taking her away. So his experiences like that and, it’s I’m going to use this word cruelly, but it’s fun for me, not in the aspect of seeing people pass on, but the dignity that I’m able to give someone and the light that I’m able to give someone, whether it’s in a hospice capacity or whether it’s in a client’s capacity. So that’s really where it’s fun for me.

Betty Wang 00:35:38 Well, it’s such a gift. It is.

Christopher Dale 00:35:40 A privilege. Yes. I would agree with you.

Betty Wang 00:35:42 To be with someone, you know, one of the most important times of their existence, right. Of their life here on Earth. And, I think people listening to the podcast are probably surprised that we’re not really spending a lot of time on technical pieces, right? We’re talking about brain fog. We’re talking about how to get through and how that the the technical pieces, the practical pieces while they’re there.

Betty Wang 00:36:18 And you need support for that. It’s really this emotional heavy fog. can you explain how advisors like you get involved or. I mean, I think people are surprised that you would say, no, no, hold off on on us working together. I think you should, go off and and get some, some more support first. I think listeners who aren’t familiar would say, well, what if they have to decide this, this and this? Wouldn’t it be good to do both? Like, why wouldn’t you recommend having Counseling or connecting with the group or another widow along with a financial advisor.

Christopher Dale 00:37:04 Sure, I I’m going to dig into my certified financial transition as training. And so what I’m.

Betty Wang 00:37:13 Saying, what that is to folks who don’t know what that is.

Christopher Dale 00:37:15 Sure. Certified financial transition is it is someone who specializes in helping folks with transitions, specifically money transitions. And so all of that experience that I told you that I have right, I have now instincts that I work with. And but my instincts are not necessarily a repeatable process for someone else.

Christopher Dale 00:37:42 And so the Sudden Money Institute, Susan Bradley, who is the founder and the creator of this, it felt like someone was studying my life. Right. And then they put this they stamped this with scientific theory. And now there are processes that, you know, you can kind of go forward with. And so now I have these processes that I can stamp with my personal experience. And they just drive and they just go go hand in hand. And so the widow that I spoke about, one of the first things that I do is I do something that’s called communication preferences. How do you like to communicate? Do you like to have phone calls? Do you like to have zoom calls? Do you like me to come to your house in person? Do you like emails? Do you like text messages? What is what is that that you like? Just imagine if you like text messages and I’m calling you all the time. How annoying would that be? And but I understand that it’s quick, right? And it may be preferred.

Christopher Dale 00:38:45 And you may not be in an emotional state where you could talk on the phone, I understand that. So in my certified financial transition, training. There’s a lot of things that kind of go on there. And so you talk about the application of decision making with emotions, right? Emotions dictate decision making, even if you have the technical right answer. And I’ll give you another specific situation. So I had a client, a couple of years ago. They had a house here in Orlando, and they were building a house in one of the Carolinas. And the financial decision was like, sell this house in Orlando. You know, you could put it towards the house in one of the Carolinas. And I’m talking to her. And these these decisions completely conflict. But she had a lot of stuff emotionally that was going on in her life. So what we did is we laid out right how much it would cost to hold this house in Orlando. And that was it was known how much it cost the emotional component Hold the house.

Christopher Dale 00:39:55 It makes you feel better, right? You know this financial component. And we’re going to have to get over this. But if we’re looking at both things and you have to spin it, I’m going to just use extreme amounts here. If you have to spend $10 right, to maintain your emotions intact, well, I’m going to spend $100 because the long term effects I know that of my emotional stability, it’s priceless. And so what I said to this particular client, hold the house and don’t put a time frame on it because you know that you can afford it. And I said to her, even if you couldn’t afford it, we could make arrangements for you to protect your, emotional integrity here. There are some workarounds that we can, you know, get creative with. So that is an that’s an aspect of where this emotional and I call this other aspect the technical. They sometimes collide and oftentimes they collide. Yeah. And so my job your job now becomes where is that fine balance between the emotional side and the technical side.

Christopher Dale 00:41:11 And I know the decision making like I said, is going to be dictated and predicated on emotion. And so understanding that, knowing that and helping bridge that gap because we’re I mean, you’re a CFP buddy, I’m a CFP. That aspect becomes a lot easier because we’ve been doing this for so long. If they come to me, if they come to you, the technical aspect is probably going to be remotely similar because of our professional training and our professional experience. But that emotional component, how you massage that in, that’s where it really makes the difference.

Betty Wang 00:41:51 Yeah. I mean, I tell folks that the technical stuff is actually the easier piece, right? Yeah.

Christopher Dale 00:41:59 Yep. 100%.

Betty Wang 00:42:00 And that’s where the art comes in of what we do and the personalization. Right?

Christopher Dale 00:42:06 Yes.

Betty Wang 00:42:09 I think that’s helpful for people to understand what a financial or certified financial transition is. And, Susan Bradley’s work, it’s very well respected and well known. I did want to take a little time and talk again about the book when it the last part of your title is when money, trauma, grief and racism collide.

Betty Wang 00:42:32 And we’ve talked about money, talked about grief. But, you know, you put these four things together and, I wanted to make sure we had enough time to. It’s it’s a big it’s a big topic. But what made you, Choose this part of your title. And what does that mean to you? And what do you mean by it? I think some people will think, how does that work? Right? How how do those things connect or intertwine?

Christopher Dale 00:43:03 Sure. And thank you for asking me to go there. So Betty and I talked before the podcast, and I’m going to use my kids. Right. What they say about me. They say that daddy is built differently, and I’m built differently because of the experiences that I’ve gone through. And I and I like to share personal stories and. Money, trauma, grief and racism. This story that I’m about to share with you bridges the gap for each one of those. Okay, so my wife and I, bought a condo, early 2000, downtown Orlando.

Christopher Dale 00:43:45 So we’ve owned it for, say, 20 years. And this condo had a window that was broken, right. And I had a couple of younger female tenants that lived there. And so it posed a security risk if someone could get in there. And I’m thinking about risk. And so I go to the condo. And so I say to them, I need to get this window replaced, knowing that there are other units in the complex that have had the same windows that are replaced, and these are the old style 80 windows that were roll up and it got damaged and we just needed to put a just a flat window. So they approved the window and I as a formality, I had to go to the meeting. And so I go to the meeting and I’ve had this experience at other times. So people hear me, they may speak to me on the phone, they don’t see me, but when they see me in person, it’s a different story. Betty is smiling and she knows what I’m talking about.

Christopher Dale 00:44:43 And so I go to this meeting and there were some things that come to light at the meeting. It wasn’t because of me, it was just because of some impropriety between the president of the Ho Hoa and the manager. Right. There was some sort of improper relationship that was going on there. It was discovered during this meeting. And so the HOA president becomes very irate with me. I’m the subject of his frustration. And so they deny my window and I’m fine. We can get through those mechanics. Right. But I understand why it was denied. So after the meeting, this is where things really start to escalate. I go out and I’m getting ready to go to my car. I’m talking to another, homeowner, and the HOA president comes to me and he puts his finger in my face and he says, you people make the values of our condos go down. So I’m going to bridge some things for you. So all the racism and things that discrimination I’ve gone through in my life now have come to the surface, right? My wife and I purchased this property well in advance of this HOA president and every being in the complex, he’s accusing me now of bringing down the values of the property.

Christopher Dale 00:46:02 He is now denied a window. Right? A couple hundred dollars window. That is a security risk for my tenants. And it could cause a problem if I sold it later. And so I just brought up, the money aspect. Well, not really the money aspect yet, but the trauma, the grief and the racism, right. It brought all those up. So the money aspect where this really comes into place is now I have to hire an attorney and my attorney, you know, goes to them. And what they come back to me and say, well, we want you to replace all the windows in your, your condo. No, that’s that’s blatant discriminatory practices. And so I go around the complex, and there are 11 other units that have the exact same window by the exact same company that was replaced. Right. So now I’m out money to the attorney to pay for this, where other people in the same complex have given the same giving the exact same treatment. Now Chris Dale and Anne Marie Dale now have to go and spend probably 4 or $5000 for this window.

Christopher Dale 00:47:20 Betty. That probably costs $500, right? So my entire life has been like that. There’s been a second job my entire life. I could tell you at nauseum police incidences where I was profiled. It happens. It happens to everybody, right? I’m not going to dwell on it. I could tell you another situation where there was someone that, discriminated. Discriminated? My wife and, and I. And someone that actually threatened my life. that we had to drag through the legal system. to make a point. it costs 10 to $20,000 to do that, Betty. That’s a monetary aspect. That’s not something that everybody else has to go through. And it’s not fair. It is my reality, and I’m fortunate that I can find the money to be able to fund these things. It’s not easy, and I’m not going to lie. We’ve had for some of these situations, we’ve had to accumulate some semblance of debt. But I am not going to stand for someone that doesn’t like me just because of what I look like.

Christopher Dale 00:48:37 That is not my problem any longer. If somebody else has to, you know, has a problem with what I look like, they can just move the other way. And it’s happened. It has happened. And these situations, like I said to my wife, it’s not going to happen any longer where somebody just steamrolled or they feel entitled, that they can just roll over. I’m a nice guy, Betty. I’m not going to get loud. I am not going to yell and scream.

Betty Wang 00:49:03 I concur, you’re one of the best humans I’ve met.

Christopher Dale 00:49:07 Well, I would, I would my some of my friends probably wouldn’t concur on that, but early in life I probably would have gotten in your face and I probably would have. There would have been a physical altercation in that example that I shared with you. It took everything within my ability not to basically drag this guy on the ground and just started beating him at nauseam. I was thinking about, I have a great job. I have two kids and I am an example for I’m married and I can’t go to jail, that those are the only things that were going through my mind at that point, and that was the only thing that kept me.

Christopher Dale 00:49:47 I mean, you can imagine I was very, very upset, in that moment. And I had to close my eyes, step back. And in that moment, after I did that, I said to that gentleman, are you done? And he said, yeah. And I said, well, this is the only time in your lifetime that you will ever speak to me like this. It will never happen again without a formalized consequence. And he said to me, are you threatening me? And I said, I’m telling you how it is. It’s not going to happen again. And to take this a step further, there were probably 4 or 5 other board members that were watching this, and no one intervened. No one said one word. And so the other aspect that I’ve understood to is A lot of times I’m on an island by myself, and I don’t have the expectation that anybody else is going to step in.

Betty Wang 00:50:43 Yeah, that was a comment in your book that also touched that you felt you feel very lonely on the journey.

Christopher Dale 00:50:48 And conversely, though I like to give balanced feedback in that regard. In college I had, a friend that I had known for probably 11 years or so, and he had been drinking and he used a racial slur towards me. I hit him, Betty. I hit him in the face again. That’s a 21 year old Chris Dale versus the almost 50 year old Chris Dale. And in that moment, I realized that there are very good people. So my God, brother to this day and his wife, they were part of that group. They isolated this gentleman. And actually there were other people in in that circle. They saw the rage right in me and they removed me. because understanding someone that I knew and I was totally genuine with this other individual, and for them to hold this back for 11 years, how much anger I excuse me, I had in the moment and I tell this story to my boys. I hit him one time and he had a bloody nose, and I can only imagine if there was no one else there.

Christopher Dale 00:51:58 What would have happened? By the grace of God, I had good people around me and, Sean is my God brother and I don’t think he really understood in the moment how monumental that was. But for me it was a life. He made a life altering choice. Sean did. And so we are, whether he likes it or not. We are, we are fused at the hip because of that. and there are good people. But again, because of my experience, I don’t rely and I don’t expect other people to step in. because if I do, then I’m let down. But, Sean.

Betty Wang 00:52:40 I think those are the things. Yeah, that people don’t understand how hurtful it is. especially with someone you have such a long relationship with, for them to hear how they really feel about you.

Christopher Dale 00:52:54 Correct.

Betty Wang 00:52:57 yeah. It’s it’s, you know, we’ve been very we’ve talked about this and Chris has been my mentor for some of this. I’m not as far along in my journey as he is, but it is.

Betty Wang 00:53:11 You know, the reality is in our industry, 25% of women, there’s only 25% who are women, who are CSPs. and there’s only 4% who are Asian. Right. So it is and I don’t know what the statistics are for, African-American and Hispanics, but it’s very, very low as well. So we are. You know, paving a way that we haven’t been historically. So. you know, I had reached out to Chris for some guidance, how to navigate this situation with Grace and how to maintain be true to myself. And I’ve found him to be so helpful. So thank you, Chris. You’re welcome. He is just a wealth of experience. The good, bad and ugly. But those boundaries and sharing it. a lot of I mean, I’ve shared things with Chris that I’ve not shared with other people who have known me for years. It’s, he brings that trust out in people, and I think that’s very special.

Christopher Dale 00:54:24 you make me smile when you say that.

Betty Wang 00:54:26 Oh, yes.

Betty Wang 00:54:28 and I just. You know, I think it’s important for the many folks who may experience the world as a person of color, or as a minority in any way, just to know that there are others out there and it’s, you know, hopefully the more folks who don’t experience it or haven’t thought about it in that way, just to hear from, you know, two nice people and trying to make their way through the world, that this stuff is real. And it really does affect us in our interactions with the world.

Christopher Dale 00:55:09 I’m going to take that a step further. I think you articulated that very, very well. I think there’s an element of being uncomfortable, asking the question, so if you’re a non minority, if you’re a non woman. Right. I’m going to have two different categories there. it’s uncomfortable. And then there’s an element of ignorance that go on. And so again I’m going to ask.

Betty Wang 00:55:30 Ignorance. Right. They want to they want to remain ignorant. They don’t want to even go there.

Christopher Dale 00:55:35 And so I have two, different groups of friends that I have a text message chain. Like as we get older, we have text message chains with various people. And so I have a white group and I have a black group. The white group is the or the the guys that I went to high school can’t call them kids because they’re too old. So they’re the guys that I went to high school with. And then this other group is a group. it’s my black friends, right? That, I met them literally the day that I went off to college, and none of us went to college together, but it was just we just had similar interest. And I would say sometimes the different views that come into the white group and I, I rarely ever defend anything that goes on. But some of the, and I, I wouldn’t say that it’s anything that is, malicious or anything or anything that necessarily offends me. But I have another guy in the group. He’s arguably one of my best friends in the white group, right.

Christopher Dale 00:56:34 That has taken the time and energy to understand all of the stuff that I have gone through as a black man, and I’m telling him this information, he’s a white guy and he doesn’t have the lived experience that I have, and he will defend because it makes him so mad that some of these things come out in ignorance. Right? And my capacity now, if I hear something, unless it directly affects me, I’m not going to respond to it. It just doesn’t. It’s not worth my time and energy. But to see this dynamic happen in my white friend group. And again, there’s nothing that’s blatant. It might be something that’s politically motivated, that happens and, we’ll have meaningful dialogue, about this. And it’s really nice to see. And there there was, one situation. There was a coach that died that, he was a basketball coach back in the day. And I sent something and again, in this, this white group and, I sent it. And so one of the guys in the group who was not in basketball, like a lot of the other guys, he said, well, Chris, is that your uncle? Right.

Christopher Dale 00:57:47 And so, then he realized like after that and what transpired and he was quickly he’s like, man, that was so bad of me to say that. And it was like an assumption. And but in in his mind, he was thinking that that was an uncle, that somebody that everybody else knew except for him. And I said, hey, man, there’s no offense taken. You didn’t really know who this guy was. And he. But for him to have the presence of mind to think advanced, that this could have been offensive, it wasn’t offensive to me, but it could have been. But those are, you know, how. Breaking down and asking the questions. You know, some of these barriers.

Betty Wang 00:58:30 absolutely. I mean, I think, friends and I had this conversation this weekend. It’s it’s about intent, right? Right. if it’s malicious, if it’s, you know, as we’ve talked about, I’ve been threatened. I’ve been, gone through a lot of racism. That was very scary.

Betty Wang 00:58:55 You know, it’s not the comments. It’s not. It’s it’s it’s how it’s sad. Why it’s sad. And you, I think we get a very good. I call it the spidey sense. Right? You can just. You feel it. they could look nice as pie, but, you know.

Christopher Dale 00:59:12 Right. Yeah. You know, and it’s.

Betty Wang 00:59:14 But it’s even worse when you don’t know, like your friend. Like. And that’s happened to me, too, where it’s very hurtful. You know, I had a friend for many, many years. tell me that I was a good kind of Asian. I didn’t, and I was, So it was, you know, we were no longer friends, but it is just one of those things where once upon a time, I. That would have been okay to me. So things, things have been changing for me as well. It’s a journey for all of us to manage through this world. okay. Well, I know we could talk about this topic for much, much longer, but I think all these experiences, grief, racism, trauma, they all intersect and inform who we are and how we deal with money.

Betty Wang 01:00:08 Sure. and I guess you know what? All these things are so heavy and how you carry yourself. What do you do for yourself to make the light the load lighter for yourself.

Christopher Dale 01:00:24 Well, I’ve gone through a lot of counseling. Some very deep counseling. similar to that of soldiers coming back from war. called eMDR. I think that was probably one of the biggest turning points for me is to I. Well, I can’t say that I necessarily identified that, but going through counseling, I think my counselor identified some things that were not right. so taking that step, and digging through and processing all of this stuff the right way. Betty, I feel light now. I feel really light. And being able to do that and having the help and the support to foster that. And so there’s no doubt I’m going to get into situations again, just as life will have it. But now it’s how I deal with these situations. And I say this to one of my buddies too. That was a that’s on the black, text message chain.

Christopher Dale 01:01:22 He was like.

Betty Wang 01:01:24 This is called that’s, you know, we call it code switching, right?

Christopher Dale 01:01:28 Code switch.

Betty Wang 01:01:29 Right.

Christopher Dale 01:01:30 And so he, he said to me, why do you meditate every morning? And I said, I do two things every morning I meditate well, three things. I make my bed and I stretch. And he’s like, well, why do you do all the things I said? Because those are the only things in my day that I’m ever going to be able to control. And when I told him that like a day later, I said a client of mine died. And so my whole day was just shot, right? But when I got up, I didn’t do anything but did those three things, and I controlled those things. And if so much of your life has been out of control like mine, as I want to feel like I’m in control of something and so I can control those three things. Not always because of the kids or whatever the schedule is like, or something happens, but most days I’m able to do that.

Christopher Dale 01:02:24 You know, with the meditation and it just really grounds me and the other things too, that I do to self preserve myself is I always take time for myself. Now it’s been hard to do that, but I take time for myself and my therapist and I, we go through this like, what have you done for yourself? So I exercise every day. Betty sidetracked me today a little bit. I exercise a little bit before and I’m going to exercise a little bit more. But those things are important to me. Yeah. then I take myself to lunch. on a regular basis. I go to church by myself. Very important for me, because, I don’t want the cloud of anything else other than me in church. I’m Catholic, and then I go to my church with my family on Sundays. I hang out with my friends. a lot. Sometimes I fight it and they just show up at my house. but it’s things like, I have these, systems in place that keep me grounded and just keep me going.

Christopher Dale 01:03:24 I have something always to look forward to in the next moment. Right. You know, as someone that’s 50, or almost about to be 50. I had a colonoscopy last year. Right. So after the colonoscopy, what did my buddies do? They showed up at my house. I had a clean scan, and I was like, I don’t want you guys here. but those are systems that have been developed right and in place, and they wanted to celebrate that with me. That makes me feel good. and my buddies to the one of the probably the most important things that you were telling all these lies about me up front. So my buddies do is they normalize everything. So no matter how low I get or no matter how high I get, they always keep me in the middle. You know, Chris, you’re no better than the rest of us, right? And that is absolutely true. and we are all basically mentors for each other’s kids. that is a staple in our lives no matter what decisions we make.

Christopher Dale 01:04:26 Right. And so that’s something that’s very, very important. My kids don’t care about, you know what I, I mean, they do, right? But most kids, they’re involved in their own thing, and they don’t see their parents as something else. Like Michael Jordan. Right? He’s my favorite basketball player of all time. His kids weren’t saying you’re Michael Jordan. Not not like in the same light as I’m saying, Michael Jordan. And so that’s what each one of our kids, you know, that’s how they look at. We call them the uncles or the parents. and it’s really it’s really a humbling experience to have that, because now we each have gifts that we can extend to each one of them. My gift just happens to be financial in this life experience. But another one of my buddies, his gift is construction. I don’t know anything about construction. Another buddy. His gift is the hotel industry. How many hookups have we gotten on hotels for traveling over the years? So it’s just stuff like that.

Christopher Dale 01:05:27 That’s cool. Yeah. It’s cool.

Betty Wang 01:05:29 Looking for more friends?

Christopher Dale 01:05:30 Yeah, always. So it’s, you know, it’s just. It’s stuff like that. It just. It keeps me grounded. And I look forward to doing things. The other thing, too, that I am starting to talk about a lot is I do a lot of coaching. and it first came out of my youngest son not wanting to play soccer some years ago because, you know, he’s like, I’m not going to do this, unless you’re my coach. But this turned into a situation to where I don’t coach anymore. I’m I’m I’m the coach on the field or on the court. Right. But when my sons are involved, I’m not the coach anymore. They are the coaches, right? They’re the coach on the floor. Their coach and the kids. I’m really just rotating at this point. And it it you know me looking at that, I was like, man, my stamp and my legacy is now it’s different because now my boys have these gifts that I’ve instilled in them and we talk about it too.

Christopher Dale 01:06:35 One of the things that I joke about somehow, somewhere along the line, I said, you know, most kids, boys in particular, they would pay for their, father’s time, right? I would have paid for my father’s time. And I said, are you guys going to pay me for my time? And they’re like, no, we’re not paying you for your time. Could we have your time all the time anyways? But it’s it’s it’s things like that where, you know, my father, before he injected himself in, in my life, he would Substitute time with material objects and so.

Betty Wang 01:07:12 Common.

Christopher Dale 01:07:13 It is very common. And so I don’t, you know, my boys, I don’t really give them a lot of stuff. you know, Anne-Marie likes to give gifts, but that’s not my thing. With the boys. We just spend time with each other. and we just have routines, and we spend a lot of time. Sometimes I tell them I have to get away from them, and I need some type of myself, but it’s just part of it.

Christopher Dale 01:07:36 Right? And they’ll they’ll tell me the same thing. They’re candid with me. I need some space, daddy. And. But the best gift that I could give them, or any other child that I’m spending time with, whether it’s mentor capacity or coaching, is the gift of time. So.

Betty Wang 01:07:52 And attention.

Christopher Dale 01:07:53 And attention.

Betty Wang 01:07:53 Right. The attention right. Being really being there present.

Christopher Dale 01:07:58 Yes. So I could go on and on. Love buckets with kids. I read a lot now. Love buckets for both my kids. So my older son likes words of affirmation and he likes, basically time spent, quality time. My younger, my younger son likes quality time and he likes physical touch. And so.

Betty Wang 01:08:22 Snuggly.

Christopher Dale 01:08:23 He. Well.

Betty Wang 01:08:24 Not he’s not anymore.

Christopher Dale 01:08:25 Well, no, he likes to beat me up, so. Oh. That’s his I.

Betty Wang 01:08:29 Forgot.

Christopher Dale 01:08:30 Yeah, yeah, he likes to beat me up, so. But understand you, those things when you’re working with kids is very, very important to so.

Christopher Dale 01:08:37 And it’s cool to see those things manifest each other so well.

Betty Wang 01:08:42 How can people find you? How can they connect with you on a professional basis? you know, obviously your book comes up or when this podcast is released, your book will be have already been released on Amazon. So that’s where people can find it. and we’ll put a link into the, the show notes for that. But what are other ways people can find you or connect with you?

Christopher Dale 01:09:06 Yeah, I’d like to keep it simple. So my website is Life After Grief. FP as in financial planning. Com. and then I’m going to give you my email address. It’s hello at life after Grief. Com. I’m on LinkedIn under Christopher Dale. anything that is life after grief related, that is probably how you’re going to find me. online. It was very strategic to do that, and I got some very good help in doing that. but my website and then my email address is probably the easiest way to do that. My wife sometimes gets annoyed at me because, I am a little bit probably too responsive.

Christopher Dale 01:09:49 But she also understands that there are people that I am, gravely helping. So we do carve time out for that. so. But thank you for the opportunity.

Betty Wang 01:10:00 Well, I mean, thank you for, as always, being so generous with your time and your stories, and being so candid. You know, I think the biggest takeaway is that, you know, it’s there’s no one right path. Right? And it’s trying to put the right people and systems into place. I would say, you know, and. I guess giving yourself some grace. Right.

Christopher Dale 01:10:32 Forgiveness and grace. I would agree.

Betty Wang 01:10:34 With forgiveness and grace. Yeah. And yeah, if you’re listening to this and you’re looking for support or knowing someone who needs support, just, I guess, you know, reach out. Reach out to the what is the widows group that we should.

Christopher Dale 01:10:48 Modern the the modern widows club.

Betty Wang 01:10:50 Modern widows club. you don’t have to have everything figured out right away. And of course, you know, I think Chris’s book would be a great, help support.

Betty Wang 01:11:02 Also very interesting. I think there’s a lot of twists that I wasn’t expecting. it’s a very, very personal book, much like how he is in person on this podcast. He’s very open. and some of the things he talks about are uncomfortable for a lot of people to not even talk about, but to to hear about. so his book is called Life After Grief. Holding the numbers with shaking hands. How money, trauma, grief and racism collide. and it’ll be available on Amazon. And if this conversation was helpful, remember that you don’t have to make perfect decisions. You just have to make the next little baby step right. It’s all little baby steps. So until next time, thank you for joining us, and I hope you’ll join us again for next month’s episode.

Christopher Dale 01:11:57 Thank you Betty. Great job. Thank you.