EPISODE OVERVIEW:

What if the smartest real estate move in your next chapter isn’t the one that looks best on paper? Betty sits down with mortgage expert Shannon Denham for a conversation that will change how you think about buying in this time in your life, covering tools like ARMs, bridge loans, recasts, and refinancing, and why flexibility often matters more than a low rate. They also tackle the question nobody talks about enough: when does it actually make sense to carry a mortgage instead of paying cash, and what could you do with the difference? You’ll walk away with the clarity and key questions you need to make a confident housing decision, whatever the market is doing.

TIME STAMPS:

[5:00] What’s Happening in the Housing Market Now

• Interest rate trends and what drives them
• Why preparation matters more than predicting the market

[8:33] Downsizing, Cash Buyers, and Transition Loans

• Why many retirees are paying cash
• Bridge loans and interim financing options when moving homes

[18:36] Buying Before Selling & Bridge Strategies

• HELOCs, interim loans, and qualification considerations
• How lenders structure transitions between homes

[28:38] Should You Pay Off Your Mortgage?

• Emotional vs. mathematical decisions
• How mortgages fit into overall retirement cash flow

[32:29] Vacation Homes & Second Property Planning

• Higher rates and down payment considerations
• Why second homes should be treated as a luxury purchase

[46:12] Managing Stress in Big Financial Decisions

• How Shannon supports clients through emotional housing moves
• Why preparation reduces panic decisions

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

• Real estate decisions are about so much more than interest rates – Find out how your housing choices ripple into your liquidity, taxes, lifestyle, and long-term financial confidence
• Preparation beats prediction every time – Learn why getting pre-approved, asking the right questions early, and planning ahead puts you in control—no matter what the market does
• Not all mortgages are created equal– Discover how tools like 15-year loans, 30-year loans, ARMs, bridge loans, and recasting can be used strategically for different life stages
• Cash isn’t always king – See why keeping some liquidity or a small mortgage can create more flexibility in retirement than paying everything off
• Second homes require a different mindset – Learn why vacation properties should be treated as lifestyle purchases first and investments second
• The right team changes everything – Understand why working with professionals who look at your whole financial picture leads to better decisions and less stress

GUEST INFO: 

Shannon D, Mortgage Professional and Owner, Peak Lending Team

• Website www.peaklendingco.com
• https://thelifebrief.com/
• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannondahman-thedahmanmortgageteam/
• Instagram https://www.instagram.com/shannondahman/

RESOURCES:

• Join Betty in a free consultation call for your financial goals
• Subscribe to the Betty’s Smart Friends YouTube Channel
• Follow us on Instagram
• Visit my website for more info
• Follow us on LinkedIn

Betty Wang is an investment adviser representative of BW Financial LLC, a registered investment adviser registered in the State of Colorado. Registration does not imply a certain level of skill or training. The views and opinions expressed are as of the date of publication and are subject to change. The content is for informational or educational purposes only, and is not intended as individualized investment advice. This information should not be relied upon as the sole factor in an investment-making decision. You are encouraged to consult with a financial professional to address your specific needs and circumstances.

TRANSCRIPTION: 

Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze

Betty Wang 00:00:06 What if paying cash for your home isn’t actually the smartest financial move, even if you can afford to? Welcome back to Betty Smart Friends, where we have honest conversations about money, work, life, and all the fun in between. I’m Betty Wang, a certified financial planner. I help women navigate big life transitions and make decisions about their money with confidence. Today’s episode is for those of you who are thinking about your next chapter. Maybe you’re approaching retirement and wondering if it’s time to downsize. Maybe you’re dreaming about a vacation home, a place that reflects the life you’ve built and the one you want to enjoy next. Or maybe you’re asking, how do I make smart real estate decisions without overcomplicating my financial life? Real estate decisions aren’t just about interest rates. They’re about strategy, liquidity, Taxes, lifestyle and peace of mind. I’m so excited today to welcome our guest, Shannon Denham, founder of the Denham Mortgage Team. With 31 years of experience in the mortgage industry. Shannon is a trusted expert who works with clients navigating complex financial situations, from downsizing and retirement to purchasing second homes and vacation properties.

Betty Wang 00:01:20 Shannon brings clarity and calm to what can feel like an overwhelming process, helping clients make thoughtful decisions that align not just with their finances, but with the life they actually want to live. So, Shannon, thank you for being here. And welcome to Betty’s smart friends. We’re so glad you’re here.

Shannon Denham 00:01:37 Well, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity, and I look forward to our conversation, because I know that you have the same philosophy with your clients that I do with mine, so we’re definitely in line that way, and I love that.

Betty Wang 00:01:49 Tell our listeners a little bit about how you started in the industry and your background.

Shannon Denham 00:01:54 Sure. I am born and raised in Colorado. I went to Golden High School and I attended Colorado State University. I did get a degree in finance, so I actually have the background that matches the career, which is unusual, of course. And that was 30 plus years ago. When I was graduating, I didn’t know what industry I really wanted to go into, and one of my buddies was in the mortgage business and he’s like, hey, I think you would really enjoy this industry.

Shannon Denham 00:02:18 And so I jumped in and I kind of worked the background of the mortgage business. So I worked all of these supporting roles, and I rolled through that for about 18 months and then jumped over into originating and helping in more client facing and really sitting down and working with people direct on what their goals were financially buying, you know, from their first home, second home investment properties, vacation homes and just kind of building that whole base. And so that was 30 plus years ago that I’ve been originating loans and then opened Peak Lending Team. So I am the broker owner of that. I’m an owner, but I’m also a producing owner, which really helps me keep my feet in the market and know kind of what’s going on and the temperature of just everything that’s going on with interest rates and real estate values and all of those other great things.

Betty Wang 00:03:11 You brought up the term originating. And for those listeners who don’t really know what that means. Like we hear it.

Multiple Speakers 00:03:17 Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:03:18 What exactly does that mean?

Shannon Denham 00:03:19 That’s a great question.

Shannon Denham 00:03:20 So originating means that I like if you are inquiring about a loan or you need some information about a loan as a loan originator, I am the contact person to actually sit down with you and ask you all of those detailed questions to find out what your goals are, what your finances currently look like. So we know when we are making strong recommendations for where we think you’re headed. What I always tell people I’m here to educate you. I’m going to give you my opinion on what I think could be best for you. But of course, I always tell my clients you’re in the driver’s seat. So if you want to go a different direction with this, you’ve got options, but you’re the ones. So then when it comes to actually origination, then when they’re ready to pull the trigger, then I am the person that’s signing the application with them and making sure the information is accurate and making sure that we’re delivering what we had agreed to deliver. So that’s kind of what loan origination is.

Betty Wang 00:04:10 Thank you.

Betty Wang 00:04:10 And that’s why I love working with you. Right. Because you kind of take them through the whole process with the education piece, with the support rather than people aren’t just numbers, right? They are. This is a big decision. And this is a lot of money.

Multiple Speakers 00:04:24 Oh yeah. Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:04:25 I mean usually.

Shannon Denham 00:04:27 It’s hundreds of thousands.

Multiple Speakers 00:04:29 One of the biggest investments people make. Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Denham 00:04:32 You know, I tell people I’m like, hey, you got to ask questions. You’re looking at borrowing hundreds of thousands of dollars. You need to be asking questions. You need to have a good, good grip. You don’t want to just be led down the path and then get to closing and just be signing documents that you didn’t ask questions about for sure.

Betty Wang 00:04:47 And there are lots of documents.

Shannon Denham 00:04:50 Yeah, just a couple.

Multiple Speakers 00:04:51 Just a couple.

Betty Wang 00:04:52 So you’ve been through a lot of market cycles. Like, what are you seeing these days? And just so listeners know where we’re recording mid January 2026.

Betty Wang 00:05:02 So obviously things are always very dynamic in this world. But what are you seeing recently.

Shannon Denham 00:05:08 So in the most recent, even this week we are starting to see some action out of Washington DC, trying to really make sure that rates do come down in 2026. They’re trying to do some actionable items. Right now it’s talk. So we have not seen the actions that have to follow that to really drive rates down significantly. But what’s interesting about the mortgage rates and how the trading is done is that we are leading indicators, meaning that leading, you know, rate indicators. So when they start to talk about any action that they’re going to be doing, you will see an immediate reflection right into interest rates. For example, if the Federal Reserve is going to cut rates, they start to usually announce it roughly around three. Like really announce it. You know, they play around with it like we’re going to go through two cuts this year or three cuts this year whatever they like.

Multiple Speakers 00:06:03 Angle.

Shannon Denham 00:06:04 Yeah about three three weeks prior.

Shannon Denham 00:06:08 You’re going to hear that it is really anticipated that the Fed’s you know and again this is not happening right now. Just so you know but just if if it were to start happening the Fed’s going to cut rates by a quarter of a percent. You know at the next fed meeting about three weeks before that fed meeting, when they announce that or when that starts to become the rumble of what’s going on, you will see mortgage rates drop. That’s when you see it the day they actually announce you do not see any action. It’s already baked in to the rate by the time we get to the announcement. So what’s happened is again, DC is starting to announce a lot of good things that they really want to do to try to help bring rates down to make housing more affordable. We saw a nice little bump because of that chatter. Now will it hold? That’s the question we’re going to go through a little bit. I think of a bumpy road. What I’ve seen in the past is until they start to see action it’s like okay is this really happening.

Shannon Denham 00:07:04 So then and now we’re watching the employment numbers. Now we’re watching all of the other, you know, inflation numbers and whatnot for it to be stabilized. So we’ve actually hit under 6% finally for the first time in quite a while. So that’s pretty exciting. We’re seeing a lot of movement. We’re seeing buyers kind of come off of the sidelines. That’s making it a little exciting. What I, what I tell people is don’t panic, buy and just know that preparation beats prediction every time.

Multiple Speakers 00:07:31 100% for anything in life. Yeah we’re prepared.

Multiple Speakers 00:07:37 It’s the best saying yeah.

Shannon Denham 00:07:38 Preparation beats prediction. And so if you’re thinking you want to buy, are you thinking you want to make that investment or you want to do an investment property or a second home. Start asking questions now. That way. As we start to watch what rates will do you already prepared to jump in and maybe get ahead of some of the the rush that possibly could be coming? Who knows.

Betty Wang 00:08:01 You don’t have a crystal ball.

Shannon Denham 00:08:02 Shannon, as a financial planner, you’re the same way, right? It’s like, okay.

Multiple Speakers 00:08:05 What’s going to happen with the market this year?

Multiple Speakers 00:08:07 Yeah. I’m like, I wish I mean, I wish I knew.

Betty Wang 00:08:10 But yeah, we’re planning and we’re building and flexibility kind of what you’re doing. Right. And so when we’re ready we can make adjustments. Hi listeners. Hope you are laughing and learning from this episode of Betty Smart Friends. Here’s a quick tip. Maintain an emergency fund. No matter how much you earn. Having a financial cushion or an oh shit fund is key. Try to save 6 to 8 months worth of living expenses in a liquid, easily accessible account for the times that life unexpectedly punches you in the face. Thanks for being a listener. Now back to the show.

Multiple Speakers 00:08:51 How have you seen things.

Betty Wang 00:08:52 Change over the years? I mean, I have some clients who they’ve been in their primary home. Some of them don’t have mortgages anymore. Right. And they want to downsize. But they are paying so little. Like, how do you how have you seen things evolved for your clients as rates have increased? Right.

Shannon Denham 00:09:12 Yes. So I definitely I don’t know if you heard the statistic and I can’t remember the exact. I pretty sure it’s over 40% of homes in the United States are free and clear. It’s I think it’s over 40%. Did you hear that statistic?

Multiple Speakers 00:09:27 No, but I mean, it wouldn’t surprise me. Right. People aren’t moving.

Shannon Denham 00:09:30 Yes, exactly. And so what what we’re seeing is the people, the movement right now, most most of the downsizing are paying cash. And where we’re only involved and I’ve had I actually have one going on right now where they are moving from Michigan to Colorado, and they’ve got this home that’s worth 700 in Michigan, and they’re buying a home that’s worth 600 here, and they want to own it free and clear. But they because they’re older, they want to make a move before they actually sell their home. So they want to get transition. They want to get out of their home. They want to get cleaned up and everything else. Because as you know, if you live in a home for a really long time, you accumulate a.

Multiple Speakers 00:10:10 Lot of stuff.

Shannon Denham 00:10:11 And so.

Multiple Speakers 00:10:12 Oh my gosh, so much.

Multiple Speakers 00:10:14 Yeah.

Shannon Denham 00:10:14 And so we have even found that we’re doing a lot of quote unquote interim where we are the like a six month lender for clients, helping them make that transition. And then they’re still paying cash. Now with some of our, you know, seniors. We do talk about if they’re like, okay, I’m going to hold on to some of this. I want a small mortgage. And I’m like, okay, well, let’s reverse engineer what you want your monthly payment to be and let’s make sure we do a 30. I’m typically a fan of the shorter term if it fits in the budget. A shorter term mortgage is absolutely a better way to go. However, when you’re on a fixed income and you’re transitioning into that part of life, a 30 year fix actually can make a lot more sense. Because really, what we’re trying to do is just get that expense down to interest, you know, because a lot of times they have the asset that they can pay off the principal.

Shannon Denham 00:11:04 So we’re just trying to control the interest expense. So then we’re just saying, okay, you know, if you want a payment, you know, a little math hack principal and interest on 100,000, it’s 6% is $600 almost to the penny every time. So you can actually be looking at properties, you know. Okay, I want to borrow 300,000 principal and interest is going to be 1800. So we’re working those numbers for them in that regard. And then assessing whether it makes sense to invest the difference. And can they outrun the interest rate or where we are at. We’re also Finally, in January 2026, we’re seeing arm products start to creep back in. Finally, just recently, we were able to lock in an interest rate at 5.375 for a client on a seven year arm. So that made sense because again, they’ve got the assets to pay it off, but they can borrow it and just kind of see how that plays out for them and see if they can outrun the market and use their savings and their investments to help them live, which makes a lot of sense when you’re talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Betty Wang 00:12:09 So let’s I mean, I definitely want to talk more in detail about these scenarios that you’ve brought up, but can we step back and talk about, you know, what’s an arm? What’s the difference between a 15 and 30? Sure. You know, like, again, sometimes folks have only bought one house.

Multiple Speakers 00:12:26 That’s right, that’s right.

Betty Wang 00:12:28 Right. And they don’t remember all these things. Right. Or they’re just not as familiar because they don’t want to be.

Multiple Speakers 00:12:35 I guess.

Betty Wang 00:12:36 Right? I mean, that’s where we come in, like we are the but just, you know, maybe if you could talk about the 15 year term and then the 30 year and then what an arm is and kind of what the benefits are.

Shannon Denham 00:12:50 Absolutely. So the 30 year obviously is your most used product. It’s your real traditional vanilla. You’re going to get, you know, your interest rate. And the reason I’m bringing that up is because when you jump to shorter terms you get better interest rates on those.

Shannon Denham 00:13:07 And so typically, you know, a 30 year is going to help mitigate the monthly payment. So it just depends on what those goals are for the client. If payments are lower payments are essential. Then we’re definitely going to lean on that 30 year. So then when you come in and you look at a 15, I love a 15 year, okay, here’s the magic. When you do a 15 year, you put somebody in a home at a 30 and then rates come down and we refinance them and we can keep them almost at the exact payment and drop them into a 15 year. Because the way the amortization schedules work, and that is the the amortization schedule is basically just your monthly payments. Laid out principal versus interest. And so in amortization all these loans are amortized. And what that means is that you have a certain percentage going towards principal. And it’s set every month principal versus interest. And then it adjusts monthly as you go through and you’re paying down your loan again. These are set now if you prepay your loan it jumps you down the amortization schedule and organically will push more money towards principal.

Shannon Denham 00:14:13 So if you shorten your term now if you go to a 15 year, you’re on an amortization schedule. But because you cut that in half, you’ve got a significant more going towards a principal reduction. So when I, I love that for somebody that’s in our like they’re 45 to 50 years old. And again they can be younger if that fits into their finances. It depends on if they’re raising their kids and where they’re at in that stage as well, because there’s so many dynamics that play into the decision. But if you’ve got somewhere between 45 and 50 and their goal is to retire by 6065, then we’re going to be looking at that 15 year to start knocking it out as much as possible. If it’s in their budget and all of the other things that, you know, life’s got to be life. And when you can make that magic happen, even if at the end of ten years they did the 15 year, at the end of ten years, they had a life change or something happened, and they need to go back to a to a longer term with the remaining balance.

Shannon Denham 00:15:13 They paid so much off. They owe so little on their home. It’s just it’s a huge, huge, huge benefit for them to be able to do that and have that goal of having that loan paid off. So that’s the benefit of the 15 year. In addition, the interest rate on a 15 year is typically a half of a percent better than it would be on a 30 year. So you do get a benefit of rate, but you have to be prepared for that monthly payment. So that’s where you just got to dive in and get more information on that monthly payment. You can split the difference and do a 20 year term and a 25 year term. We have few investors that will do pure custom, which is kind of interesting. We can do a 28 year. We can back into, you know, we can do a 12 year term depending on, again, what the client needs and wants. And and a lot of it has to do with where they’re at, if they’re if they’re making great money and the monthly payment is in an issue, boom, we’re doing that 15 year, no problem.

Shannon Denham 00:16:07 If it is more of an issue then we’re we’re looking at okay, what how can we hit the goals to make sure that your short term goals and your long term goals all fit together with how we’re packaging up this mortgage, whether you’re purchasing or refinancing in that case. And then second on arms, arms are adjustable rate mortgages. They kind of have a bad rap, especially if you’re maybe a little bit on the older side. You’re going to be like worried because, you know, in oh eight, a lot of those were a lot of ARM products. There was zero down and no principal reduction payments and all kinds of craziness. And that caused obviously a huge issue with the real estate market and the economy way back when. And I think a lot of people sell PTSD over that. And it’s amazing that it’s it’s been 13, 13. It’s been 18 years since that all really happened. But the arms today are completely different. They are stable, stable arms. For example, what I had mentioned before, the adjustable rate mortgage would be a seven year fixed.

Shannon Denham 00:17:09 So you’re locked in for seven years. Most people don’t keep their mortgage or their home for that length of time. Usually some life event has happened that they’re either refinancing or they’re selling and moving. So it’s a pretty secure place to be and you can get an interest rate. Typically, we’re not a normal world. We haven’t been since Covid, but in a normal world, that rate would typically be 1 to 1.5% lower than your standard 30 year fixed. And so yeah, when you put a, you know, a pencil to it, it can be a huge, huge way to move your finances forward if you use it appropriately.

Betty Wang 00:17:48 Right. I mean, where people got in trouble before was they weren’t ready for that arm to adjust to current rates.

Multiple Speakers 00:17:55 Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:17:55 So that’s just something you want your lender to be very talk through with you.

Multiple Speakers 00:18:01 Yeah.

Shannon Denham 00:18:01 And you need to know, okay. If we get to that 85th payment because you got 84 fixed at whatever rate you get to 85th payment, it is based upon the new principal balance.

Shannon Denham 00:18:11 And we’re rates are at that time. And we can run the worst case scenario and say, okay, this is what the payment would be at the end of seven years. And I think a lot of people are surprised. It’s not as much as they think. And if you really look at it, I would say, are you going to have income growth over seven years? Are you going to be stagnant today? Like, do you see your income being the same? To in seven years it is today. Or do you see an increase? You know if it goes up, let’s just say 5 or $600 a month. Are you going to be making an extra thousand because you got to cover taxes and whatnot? Are you going to make another 12 grand from where you are today in seven years? And usually a lot of people are like, I hope so.

Betty Wang 00:18:49 Yeah, I think we all hope that.

Multiple Speakers 00:18:52 You know, that’s a that’s a.

Shannon Denham 00:18:53 Minimal, you know, adjustment for most people in income growth.

Betty Wang 00:18:57 Thank you for explaining that. So going back to like the scenarios that you were talking about, you know that sort of bridge loan. What is what does that look like when you have that client who doesn’t want to quite sell their primary home, but they want to buy their new home? Yeah. Is it like the same as a traditional purchase where you’re putting down 20% in cash and then you’re getting the mortgage for the rest of the amount. And then when you sell your sell the home in Michigan, you are kind of deciding whether just to pay that whole mortgage off. Is that kind of how it works?

Shannon Denham 00:19:36 That is how it works and it can be different. Bridge. It’s like bridging that gap. There are different ways to skin the cat is basically what it comes down to.

Multiple Speakers 00:19:44 Yeah.

Shannon Denham 00:19:44 So we’ve got some clients who they’ve got the liquidity for. Like you said, they’ve got the liquidity to come in with their 20% down or maybe even more than that because they’re like, okay, we’ve got whatever 200,000 we’re going to throw at this.

Shannon Denham 00:19:58 We’re going to take a loan for the difference and then sell the Michigan house. We’ll use Michigan as our example and sell the Michigan house, and then either pay this off completely or look at investing that money instead. So there’s, you know, there’s options that way. The other thing that we’ve seen before, they’ve put their home on the market, is to do a home equity line of credit against their, their current home to get them, you know, just to be a cash buyer. You know, when they are making their move. So that’s another way to bridge that gap. And we have then a true, true bridge loan company that we’ve partnered with. So one of the catches with trying to do some of this is you still have to meet the debt to income ratio guidelines. So you still have to go through the approval process. You still have to do all all of that. And for clients who may have a mortgage like for these clients, they own their house free and clear in Michigan.

Shannon Denham 00:20:53 So I only have to qualify them with taxes and insurance in Michigan. And then their new house payment here in Colorado, that would be their debt to income ratio calculation. If somebody has a still a pretty hefty mortgage on their current home and they’re trying to tap into a hefty mortgage. Sometimes we can run into qualification issues and we got to pull in our other company who will actually do an interim bridge loan without that debt to income ratio qualification. So it’s a real short term. It’s 90 days. It’s a little bit of a pressure cooker.

Multiple Speakers 00:21:27 It’s probably it’s the third option.

Shannon Denham 00:21:29 It’s the bottom of the barrel when we’re really looking at options. But it’s available as well. So there’s ways for us to work out you know how to make that transition for people. And again that’s just more of a convenience thing for a lot of these people because they want to move first and sell after. And you know, it makes sense. You get to a certain age and moving is so hard anyway that you.

Multiple Speakers 00:21:51 Know.

Betty Wang 00:21:51 Oh gosh, such a pain.

Multiple Speakers 00:21:52 Yeah, such a pain for sure.

Betty Wang 00:21:55 How do you decide between, you know, I have a client who’s going through this right now. They want to move. They’re trying to decide whether to pay with cash or not. How do they decide between having a small mortgage, which is, you know, gives them a little more flexibility. They’re going into retirement or, like you said, getting a HELOC, right? I mean, for me, the flexibility going into retirement is the key here. But I guess when it comes to which product, you know, we need someone to sort of think that through for us. Someone like you.

Shannon Denham 00:22:28 Yeah. So typically what happens is I’m going to obviously jump on the call and do a consultation where I’m really getting a good idea of the whole financial package, not just the mortgage piece. So I’m not just like driving in on, okay, are you qualified? Da da da da da. Here’s what we can do.

Shannon Denham 00:22:46 I’m I’m saying all right. What is your end goal? Let’s start with the end goal in mind. And then let’s go backwards to see how we can make that happen for you. And then most of the time, I’m having to refer them back and say, okay, now that I know that, here are your options specific to you of what’s available to you. Now we need to consult the big dogs, which is the CPA and the financial planner, and say, all right, yeah. What does it mean to these clients that they’re going to take on this mortgage. The other thing that we always recommend to is with bridging that gap. So let’s talk about that. So like let’s just say they come in, they borrow more on the new house than they actually really need or want based upon the old house selling and just, you know, the package it up that they could borrow more upfront. They could do a principal reduction payment. Now that doesn’t change the the monthly payments, which is a problem when you’re going into retirement and you’re going out to a fixed, you know, even even your buku buck people, they, you know, there’s still a monthly nut to live.

Shannon Denham 00:23:52 You want to live life abundantly, but that monthly nut. And so you can do what’s called a recast, which is kind of an interesting thing to do as well. And this works with even younger buyers who want to buy before they sell. Is that you come in and you have to make a large principal reduction payment, and large means 5000. It’s not that much.

Betty Wang 00:24:11 That’s interesting.

Shannon Denham 00:24:12 I know I’m like, you call that large? I’d call that small. But let’s just say you came out of a home and you had, you know, whatever, 600,000 out of this home. You borrowed 400,000 on the new one, and you want to just pay down 200,000 again. Just throw the numbers out at the at the wall here. You can then go to the mortgage company. And for a flat small fee it’s usually around $150, $200 tops. Do what’s called a recast. And that is where you do the principal reduction. They will take your new principal balance over the remaining term at the rate that your note is at, and readjust your payments so you can get your payments adjusted down for that living, that you need it to be long term.

Shannon Denham 00:24:54 So again, we’re looking at long term and short term all wrapped up into one big bow when I’m consulting with clients. And then we’re leaning back on the experts with the tax ramifications, the tax write offs, the investment piece, how that all works and how that’s going to work and play into their quality of Life for that transition.

Betty Wang 00:25:15 My understanding is that some jumbo loans, like, you know, over what, seven 5850 was that the rule cannot be replaced. 832 okay.

Shannon Denham 00:25:25 So no, that’s new Jumbos. A lot of these companies are now with jumbos allowing recasts.

Betty Wang 00:25:31 How new is that? I mean, I have a client who they definitely have wanted to recast, but when they signed on, it said no, does it? It has to be a new, new loan to be able to do that.

Multiple Speakers 00:25:42 So have them push back.

Shannon Denham 00:25:44 On their lender again. I successfully had someone do it in July.

Multiple Speakers 00:25:47 Oh, okay.

Shannon Denham 00:25:48 Before that I told them Jumbos you cannot recast. I said exactly what you did.

Shannon Denham 00:25:53 I was like, you cannot recast. You cannot. And then they said, what if we press them and I’m like, press them. Let’s see what happens. And they pressed and they got an approval for a recast. I don’t know if they were coming in with a huge I think it was around 350 or 400 grand On theirs. So it was a huge reduction. I have a feeling with jumbos they don’t want $5,000 principal reductions. They want it to be significant for that recast.

Betty Wang 00:26:24 No, no no that would be fine. Yeah. I mean and then we were going into the question of is it better to recast or refi?

Shannon Denham 00:26:32 Okay. So that’s an interesting question. I just had a client who was planning to recast called me up. And he’s like, you know, let’s just run the refi numbers. We were able to work up a no cost refi, lower rate than what they currently had and and capture it all in one big wrap it up in one big bow with a refinance.

Shannon Denham 00:26:52 So it just depends on their current rate. It just depends on, you know, their current situation. So we have to do, again, a deep dive into what that looks like and and do. I’ve got a great spreadsheet to do a comparison of your current loan to the new loan. Exactly how that looks, the breakdown of the interest to interest expense and and all of that dialled in. So that way we make sure that if we were to execute that, that it really is the best plan of attack.

Betty Wang 00:27:17 And then, you know, the rule of thumb that we were told in financial planning world is that unless the rate is cut by 1% or more, there’s really no benefit.

Shannon Denham 00:27:28 It’s changed. It’s changed because the loan amounts, because the loan amounts are so much higher. So that rule of thumb works if you’re under probably a four. I’m going to throw this out. And this is not a hard number because because it could vary based upon if you’re going to a 15. And yeah, but if you’re under a $400,000 loan, yes, you probably need about a 1% with no points.

Shannon Denham 00:27:53 Standard closing costs drop. I right now have a little surge of guys that have just come in. These loan amounts are closer to the five 5606 50 and up. And we are saving people 400 bucks a month ish with about a 5/8 drop in rate. So it’s really based upon that loan amount because that that bigger loan amount and we’re doing it with no closing costs. So what I’m doing is I’m raising the rate. Like if you have that bigger loan, I can raise the rate an eighth and typically cover your closing costs 100%. So we’re moving you forward with no closing costs. You have to make six payments before you can refi again. But if rates continue this downward trend late summer or early fall, these people can refinance again. So we’re saving them short term. And if they refinance again more, if they don’t refinance again, they’re just on that saving savings train. So that’s kind of the goal with what we’ve been experiencing. And that’s been a big home run. The lower loan amounts is much tougher to do that.

Shannon Denham 00:28:58 So it just depends on what amount you owe.

Betty Wang 00:29:01 I have I want to check on a few clients stuff now.

Multiple Speakers 00:29:05 I will wait again talking.

Betty Wang 00:29:07 So, you know, we’ve talked a lot about kind of downsizing and you know what? Are there times that it makes sense to just pay all cash in your mind?

Multiple Speakers 00:29:17 You know, I think.

Shannon Denham 00:29:19 And I’d love to hear your opinion on this too. I know that you’re interviewing me, but I’d love to hear your opinion because I think it’s client to client. I think it’s psyche. I honestly, I think that if people I think they’re saying really just think once I own my house free and clear. The freedom is there. I don’t agree, but I’m not going to push people to like, take a mortgage because I don’t agree. I want them to want what they want. A lot of people just think that that’s a freedom thing and it is a freedom thing. No doubt about it. You know, owning owing money is not freedom. However, I think if people really sat down and looked at their monthly budget, they would discover that the mortgage part of their budget is small compared to the rest of their expenses, so it doesn’t necessarily save you all that much on a monthly basis.

Shannon Denham 00:30:10 It’s the rest of the of living and eating out and having fun and and experiencing life. And you still have your taxes and insurance. So you’re really and your principles, your principle. So you have to really almost pull your mortgage statement and say, what is the interest portion of this? That’s what it’s costing me. If I’m only paying, you know, 1700, I’m just throwing out our, you know, crazy number. But if I’m only paying 1700 in interest, but my expenses are ten grand a month, paying my mortgage off only saves me 1700 a month. That’s only 17% of my budget. It doesn’t take. I think a lot of people have this mental thing that it’s going to take. It’s going to all of a sudden give them way more money to go do things it doesn’t, because your monthly budget’s actually so much larger than the rest of it. What’s your thought?

Betty Wang 00:31:00 Well, I mean, it’s true. It’s an emotional decision, right? People. I have clients who said I do not want to retire with a mortgage.

Betty Wang 00:31:08 And that’s fair, right? I mean, that’s fair. They. It’s been one of their biggest expenses as a accumulate. I mean, we also look at it from a math perspective, right. Like could it do better in the market. That depends on your rate. There’s math there. But there’s also that emotional piece. And that’s where I’m like we can talk about the math. But this is what would make you feel comfortable in retirement because.

Shannon Denham 00:31:35 That’s exactly.

Multiple Speakers 00:31:36 Right. Right.

Betty Wang 00:31:37 It’s such a huge change. Having a mortgage sometimes, like like we’ve talked about gives you a lot of flexibility. Right. Because you have a little more cash. People don’t think about that. But you haven’t put all of your money back to the house. Right. And, you know, once you pay everything back, it’s hard to get that money out. I mean, then we’re talking. Like, why can’t I think of a reverse mortgage, right? If you need that money from the house, back out.

Betty Wang 00:32:07 And that’s not fun either. Right.

Shannon Denham 00:32:10 That’s right.

Betty Wang 00:32:10 It’s a lot easier to just keep the little, the the small mortgage you have going than to do something like that.

Multiple Speakers 00:32:17 Yeah. And so many.

Shannon Denham 00:32:18 People, unless they’re making a move and they’re having to take these higher rates today compared to four years ago. You know, you know most of these people are in the twos low threes.

Betty Wang 00:32:29 Yeah I might never pay that off. I mean if we only listen to math, never pay that off.

Multiple Speakers 00:32:36 Exactly.

Betty Wang 00:32:37 You know again that’s like that that balance.

Multiple Speakers 00:32:40 Yeah.

Shannon Denham 00:32:40 And we own rental properties. So so we’re on a mission to pay those off because those if those are paid off. And when we go into our sunset, then that helps pay our bills. But we’re not going to pay off our primary. That’s our plan. I mean, that’s that’s truly where we’re coming from. So that’s exactly right, because the rate we can outrun the rest of it. But when you get the cash flow of rental properties, that becomes fun, because now all of a sudden that’s just gravy.

Shannon Denham 00:33:07 Gravy on top.

Betty Wang 00:33:08 Well, let’s I mean, let’s talk about vacation and second homes. You know, I have clients who are, again, transitioning or thinking about what they want in the next phase of their life. And they’re like, okay, you know, I love having my primary home. My kids like coming back to their childhood home, but I want to winter somewhere else. I mean, what should they think about that’s a little different than their primary home? And for some of these folks, this is their first their first second home.

Multiple Speakers 00:33:33 Sure.

Shannon Denham 00:33:34 Okay. So first of all, the rates on second homes and investment properties are higher. Typically it depends on your down payment. But typically you’re going to see a rate higher around 7/8. You know let’s just say three quarters. So three quarters higher than what your traditional mortgage is. One catch that a lot of people don’t know is they think, oh, I’m just going to put 20% down. That’s the magical mortgage number, right? Everybody knows about 20%.

Multiple Speakers 00:34:01 It’s all been told that, right?

Multiple Speakers 00:34:03 It’s all been told. And that avoids the mortgage insurance.

Shannon Denham 00:34:07 Which mortgage insurance is insurance that you pay that covers us from you defaulting. That’s all you’re really paying for. You’re paying risk management when you’re when you’re paying for that mortgage insurance. So you definitely want to get to 20% down. But on second.

Multiple Speakers 00:34:19 Homes.

Shannon Denham 00:34:20 And investment properties both, if you can get to 25% down, you will get a much better interest rate. There is Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have all of these, what they call loan level price adjustments. And so we do this big grid on your credit score, your loan to value what the purpose of your are you purchasing second home investment property or whatnot. So it’s this big grid. Well when you bridge over to 25% down, it gets significantly better. On the financing side of things. Now, 20 to 25% down can be a significant amount of money. And so the question is, do you just bite the bullet and go 20% down? But I would encourage people just to at least pencil 25 and try to get a little sharper interest rate, because when you’re buying a second home, it’s just an expense, right? I mean, you might be able to rent it out some, but truly you’re just offsetting some of your costs.

Shannon Denham 00:35:14 The reality is, if you find a property and you can put 20% down and you can short term and have fun and rent it out, you know, while you’re transitioning into like, okay, eventually I maybe want to be there more and more and more. You will not cover the expense at today’s rates. You just won’t. It just the math doesn’t matter, but you will offset some of your costs and start building that wealth through real estate, investing in a different, you know, different market. So that’s kind of a fun thing to do is to have real estate in different markets, because different markets perform at different levels. Right. And so that becomes kind of more fun. So then the vacation property, people need to really look at it as a luxury. You need to be able to make sure that you can comfortably afford it and not depend on any supplemental income from that, in my opinion.

Betty Wang 00:36:00 Yeah. How does that work? I don’t know that most of our clients are in Colorado, but let’s say they want to come to you.

Betty Wang 00:36:08 They trust you. They know you. How does that work logistically? Because you can only underwrite in Colorado. Or how does that work for folks?

Shannon Denham 00:36:18 That’s correct. We are licensed. I’m licensed actually in four states right now. But a lot of states have their own laws that you like. You have to work with somebody there. And so I’ve networked with a nationwide I’m in a coaching group, I’ve got a nationwide group of awesome people that I work with that I can make referrals. They or I, if I don’t have somebody in the state that they’re looking at. Like a lot of times they’ll call me. I’ll say, let’s just bounce some numbers and they’ll be like, okay, let’s just do a ten minute, you know, napkin numbers. And I’ll.

Multiple Speakers 00:36:48 Say, because.

Shannon Denham 00:36:49 You’re going to Arizona where you have to have brick and mortar. You have to be physically in Arizona to be able to originate loans. Let’s get you connected with somebody that is really going to do the deep dive.

Shannon Denham 00:36:58 But I can get you launched of okay. Is it a possibility? Yes, it’s a possibility. Okay. So now we need to introduce you over. But I’m licensed in Florida. Texas, Colorado and Michigan are the four states that I can actually help with financing and do it from soup to nuts. In fact, I just help somebody buy a second home in Naples, Florida in October.

Betty Wang 00:37:19 A lot of Chicago people from where I’m originally from. That’s that’s their go to place. Naples is.

Multiple Speakers 00:37:25 I know.

Shannon Denham 00:37:26 Yeah, it feels like Chicago kind of has the West Side and New York has the the East.

Multiple Speakers 00:37:30 Side.

Betty Wang 00:37:32 So is that different when you’re looking at vacation or second homes? Can you do a 30 year or does that are there limitations there that that people should know about.

Shannon Denham 00:37:41 You can do a seven year arm. Yep. You can do a 30. You can do a 15. You can do a seven year arm. You can do any of the above. It’s just all about how that the rates equate to it not being your primary residence, just because the the market considers those to be higher risk properties.

Shannon Denham 00:37:59 You know, if you were if you were going south. Now, of course, people can afford vacation homes. Not all, but rarely are they going to be not pretty financially savvy. But if they overreach, those properties would go under like you would. You would let your vacation home go into foreclosure before you would let your primary residence go into foreclosure. So that’s why there’s those higher rates on those products.

Betty Wang 00:38:21 Yeah.

Multiple Speakers 00:38:21 Makes sense.

Betty Wang 00:38:22 Are there other pieces of your world that you want to make sure that we cover that I haven’t asked you about?

Shannon Denham 00:38:28 I think we we covered a lot. I think we did really, really great. You know, top of my head, I’m not thinking of anything.

Betty Wang 00:38:35 That’s okay. I just want to make sure that we cover things that you want to, you know, that it’s top of mind to you. Or, you know, since I’m not in your industry, it might not pop up in my world.

Shannon Denham 00:38:45 I’d say the only thing I would say is, you know, if somebody out there looking to make a move, move either first time home or make a move up or downsize.

Shannon Denham 00:38:55 Just make sure you’re working with. If you you know, if you’re working with a mortgage person, that they really do ask you the questions. They don’t just send you to the online application and just run through the paperwork. This is a financial decision. This is this has got to have a piece of the puzzle that goes together with the rest of your finances, regardless if you have if you’re a first time home buyer and you are just scraping to put together that down payment, you still need to have somebody that has a strategy with you that’s looking at short term versus long term. And and then it’s cute because in the first time home buyer world I’m only talking about mortgage insurance. Like mortgage insurance. How are we going to get you out of this as fast as we can? And how are we going to get you to the next house? And, you know, even though you haven’t even bought the first house, we got to, like, be thinking strategically, you know? And then when we flip to the other side, it’s how do we help, you know, seniors when they’re ready to downsize? How are we making that? You know, a nice transition.

Shannon Denham 00:39:47 And again looking at okay, what you know, in ten years where are you going to be and how’s this going to look. And I don’t want you coming. I’ve had older clients come to me, insist on a 15 year and three years later call me. And they’re like, that was a mistake. And I was like, I’m not sure you should be doing this. I just want to share with you, I think a 30 is going to be better, and they’ve had to reverse and go to that 30 just because of that monthly payment did make a difference for their lifestyle and their quality of life. So that’s what we’re looking at. We do reverse mortgages as well, but it’s a very particular borrower. When I’m consulting with somebody who’s inquiring about that, we’re really diving in to make sure, because it’s a very it’s an excellent product for the right borrower, but it’s a very expensive and closing cost, very expensive. And I’m it eats up a significant amount of that equity. And and what I mean by that is probably somewhere around 20 grand.

Shannon Denham 00:40:42 I mean it’s a significant chunk that gets eaten away. I’m not opposed to that for the right client, but it’s something you just want to be very strategic with.

Betty Wang 00:40:51 Exactly. I mean, it’s great to have in the toolbox and when it’s needed, it’s needed. But yes, it’s if we can do more manageable products and have some forethought, it helps. It’s it works out much better for for the client. You know, folks might not have a financial advisor or folks might have a mortgage professional. How do you see, you know, our roles in the CPAs. How do you best work with folks like us?

Shannon Denham 00:41:17 So what I see my job as is diving into and getting a feel of their emotions and trying to get that, okay, where are their priorities? Right. First and then okay, here’s your options. Now we need if you’re not clear cut on where how this fits into your world, then we need to send all of this over to Betty and Betty. You need to tell us what you think is going to be best for what we have.

Shannon Denham 00:41:46 We’ve got options. And and then you’re consulting with them. We’re kind of backwards after you’ve got that where you can assess like, okay, we know what their net worth is. We know what their cash flow is going to be. We know what their you know, all of the pieces of the puzzle of what their income flow is going to be. So that way they can make the best decision. And so that’s where I am opinionated. I’m a woman.

Multiple Speakers 00:42:11 I’m opinionated.

Multiple Speakers 00:42:13 You know, I mean, I.

Shannon Denham 00:42:13 Usually share I will say, I’ll say, I think this is the best avenue for you based upon what I’m seeing and what I’m hearing from you. But let’s get that consult that you really need from an expert that is involved with your finances on a regular basis, that you’re meeting with once or twice a year to review your overall picture. What your goals are, make sure those haven’t changed, and make sure that this plugs and plays into that, because that’s super important as people are trying, you know, as people are going through that, right?

Betty Wang 00:42:43 And I mean, I’m biased, but as a financial advisor who’s worked with their clients and knows them, sometimes we know we’ve worked.

Betty Wang 00:42:52 We know what they’re behavioral. You know what they lean towards, right? Sometimes the math said this is right, but I know, I know that that’s going to make you nervous. Right. Like, I know that you’re not going to sleep at night and that. Right. Like, and that’s, that’s I think where the relationship parts of our business are really important.

Shannon Denham 00:43:12 I don’t get that because you’ve got the long term relationship with them. So you’ve seen the emotional roller coaster and I haven’t I’m coming in and I’m doing my 15, 20 minute, 30 minute consult and then proposing options and whatnot. And I’m basing it on the math. And based on some of the emotional side I’m seeing from them. But you have history and that history needs to play right into that decision. 100%.

Betty Wang 00:43:39 Well, I think that’s why I love the way that you work with folks, because a lot of I mean, a lot of brokers, they just they, you know, they just want the numbers and they’re like, off you go.

Betty Wang 00:43:49 And obviously, if a client or somebody is in Colorado listening to this, they or Michigan or Florida, they could connect with you. But how do people find somebody like you or what recommendations do you have if they can’t work with you because you don’t work in their area? Right. Are there places that you look to to see or they’re questions that they could ask because, you know, it’s hard. I think it’s hard when you don’t know somebody, right?

Shannon Denham 00:44:16 It is hard. I would say I don’t have a great answer for you off the cuff. There’s not a resource. First of all, I wish there was I wish it was just like, okay, you know, whatever. You know, you hate to hang your hat on this, but it’s important. Google reviews are important. But not only just looking at five stars. Open up and see what the comments are from clients who have recently worked with these people. Are they educating them? Are they explaining things? Are they spending time with them? One red flag that I would say is that if you call about inquiring about a mortgage and they are like, great.

Shannon Denham 00:44:51 I’m not going to ask you a single question and you’re going to go fill out my online application. That’s a red flag. You should be able to have a conversation. You should be able to get some numbers. You should be able to have monthly payments. Closing costs. A general conversation with a mortgage originator before you even go to that next step. Absolutely. You should be able to interview them. That way you can ask them how they’re paid. You can ask them how they work with realtors if they’re buying, you know, if they’re refinancing, who like, what’s the servicing of the loan? Like what? You know. I always tell people, we do sell your servicing off, but my service doesn’t go away. I’m available. So you can always contact me. Even, you know, two years down the road, I’m happy to jump in. I may not be able to hands on help you, but I can certainly guide you. And I can certainly make sure that you get taken care of.

Shannon Denham 00:45:41 And so those are some things. And so, you know, if you I think this is going to come out funny, but, you know, people get wrangled by the wrong people this term that we use, they get wrangled by the wrong people and then they feel guilty leaving these people. And don’t it’s your money. This is your money. Yeah. Stop doing that. If you are not getting the questions answered and you are not getting extra information as you’re going through the process, because it’s not just me waiting for you to answer, ask the questions. I’m already thinking what your next question is and going ahead and explaining that most likely you’re going to ask this based upon that, based upon this, and let’s make sure that you have a full circle period at the end of this, and you really are confident and comfortable moving forward when we’re done. And that’s that preparation meeting prediction If we prepare together. Well, there’s no. There’s no stopping yet.

Betty Wang 00:46:38 Well, and it’s all that forethought and that service and the client focus, right? It’s all client focused percent.

Multiple Speakers 00:46:45 Yeah.

Betty Wang 00:46:46 Well, before we wrap up, I’d like to ask a couple of questions to every guest. And, you know, you help your clients through these. They’re big financial decisions, right? Buying real estate, whether it’s your primary home or an investment property or a vacation home. And that brings around, like, stress, a lot of stress for your clients, which I’m sure. Yeah, you absorb.

Multiple Speakers 00:47:08 A little bit of.

Betty Wang 00:47:09 That. How do you stay grounded? How do you stay balanced in your own life and your own professional and personal life? When you know there’s a lot of stress around you or emotions, heightened emotions.

Multiple Speakers 00:47:19 Yeah.

Shannon Denham 00:47:20 So, you know, I’m pretty good with boundaries to help make sure that that I do stay protected. You know what I mean? Like, don’t get sucked into to some of the chaos. Okay, so personally, I work out on a regular basis. I try to make sure I stay hydrated, I try to make sure I stay well fed and all of those things.

Shannon Denham 00:47:39 So that’s that. And then I also find that when clients are on that emotional roller coaster, sometimes it’s just don’t talk, just listen. Let them kind of just rally through it and then full circle. And a lot of times by the time they’ve kind of.

Multiple Speakers 00:47:56 Blah blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, this is stressing.

Shannon Denham 00:47:58 Me out and it’s hard. I mean, I, you know, like I’ve watched these, you know, seniors make big moves, like, you know, Michigan to Colorado is a huge move. They’re leaving their work to be with their kids here. You know, that’s a big that’s a big, big, big move. And sometimes they just need you know I’m I’m trying to get test mask and it doesn’t work. And it’s like stop and just listen and and enjoy. And then you know, really try to set boundaries. On Friday nights my husband and I, we. 530 the phones are off. No phone, nothing.

Shannon Denham 00:48:30 We just have a date night every Friday night and make sure there’s nothing like when people are purchasing homes. There’s nothing that happens on a Friday night that can’t be handled at 8 a.m. on Saturday. Right. And so just making sure. And then we run our business very systematized. So that way it can run during the week and be organized and ahead and encourage people to really again, when I can’t say it enough, preparation means prediction because when you prepare, you can stay so much calmer, you know, because when you find your favorite house or something happens or whatever, a lot of times it’s 330 on Saturday afternoon. You don’t want to be in a panic. We don’t want a panic buy. We want to be prepared.

Betty Wang 00:49:09 Well, especially I mean, homes are so emotional, right? Like like this is the one. And so I’m sure you get a lot of calls at 330 after the open houses and.

Multiple Speakers 00:49:20 You see all and you see all your competition.

Betty Wang 00:49:22 And you’re like, oh no, this is my house.

Multiple Speakers 00:49:25 I do.

Shannon Denham 00:49:26 I do, and I, and I still I mean, I pushed being prepared as much as I can. But last weekend I had two people. We had to totally just jump and get pre-approved in a hot minute. And it was like. You know what? I’m like, dude, how did you not know you weren’t going on shopping problems? But it is what it is.

Multiple Speakers 00:49:46 I know, it’s like when we go.

Betty Wang 00:49:47 Visit puppies, you’re like, yeah, you’re.

Multiple Speakers 00:49:49 Not just looking.

Betty Wang 00:49:51 Right.

Shannon Denham 00:49:52 Now. Let’s just go and pet them.

Multiple Speakers 00:49:55 Yeah. Let me know how.

Betty Wang 00:49:56 That goes for you.

Multiple Speakers 00:49:57 I love it.

Betty Wang 00:49:58 And then, you know, how do people what’s the best way for folks to connect with you or find you if they want to learn more about you or they want to use your services or talk with you?

Multiple Speakers 00:50:10 Sure.

Shannon Denham 00:50:11 Our website is peak lending. Cocom. That’s peak lending. Com Shannon at peak lending. Com is my email. And of course anybody can call.

Shannon Denham 00:50:21 You can you know find us online of course. And just you know, phone is 303 6888628. You can text call however you want to get Ahold of us. We’re happy to do so. We’ll take it any which way.

Multiple Speakers 00:50:36 It’s not on Friday night.

Betty Wang 00:50:37 After 530.

Shannon Denham 00:50:38 But not tonight. Tonight? So today’s Friday.

Multiple Speakers 00:50:41 Oh, tonight’s.

Betty Wang 00:50:42 Friday.

Multiple Speakers 00:50:42 I think that’s I think that’s a great.

Betty Wang 00:50:44 Rule. Yeah. Well, Shannon, thank you so much for sharing. I feel like I’ve learned so much. Every time I talk to you. I learned more. And I love hearing about how you work with clients. I’ve seen it. I’ve experienced it. I just think it’s the best way to do business, right? I mean, we take care of our people, and I think that’s why you have so many repeat clients. And for our listeners, if you’re considering downsizing, purchasing a vacation home or you you just want to understand your options before making a move, you know, we’ll share links for Shannon and her team in the show notes.

Betty Wang 00:51:18 And as always, thank you for being a part of Betty’s Smart Friends, where we have real conversations to help women make confident decisions about their money in their lives. And until next time, be well. Everyone.

Multiple Speakers 00:51:32 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Betty’s Smart Friends. I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation and that you learn something new. You can connect with us on social media to stay updated on future episodes. Share your thoughts and join our community of smart friends. You can find us on Instagram at Betty Financial. And don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode! If you are feeling ready to be more empowered and less alone in your financial life, please schedule a complimentary 15 minutes with me. The link is in the show notes. Please see the show notes for important disclosures regarding BW financial planning and this episode. Until next time, remember you are not alone. We got you.